is payload and towing weight the same thing? isn't my tonge weight the only real payload weight since the payload of my trailer is supported by it's own axles?

there's a lot of different math available and it seems like they all get you to tha answer we would want to hear...or don't want to hear.

2005 f-250 weighting 6700 lbs empty, can "payload" in the bed 3/4 ton, but if you beef up the springs to f-350 level you can "payload" in the bed 1 ton.

mean while, the ford flyers say I have a towing weight of 12000 lbs, and if I subtract 6700lbs, my trailer plus the load can be 5300 lbs.

so that means I can have a ton in the bed of my truck with no trailer or a ton on my 8.5X18 toy hauler (which weights 3300lbs empty).

When they did the twoing test were they towing in 2WD, 4WH and if so, does tha mean I can tow more in "towing mode" or in 4WL?

I would have to side with cuation and go with the lowest numbers that add up....you don't want to overload your toy hauler.

 

I'm not sure about the 2005, but maybe this example will help based upon my own truck (2012 Crew gas V8 F-250):

Payload is 3,200lbs
Max conventional towing is 12,000lbs.

Basically this is saying you can put 3200lbs in the truck...that means whats in the bed and in the cab. It also says you can tow a trailer up to 12,000lbs...however, the part that needs to be subtracted off from the payload is the trailer tongue weight. If its 750lbs, than take that off the 3200lbs. Now you can tow your 12,000lb trailer and still have 2450lbs in the bed or cab of the truck. However, you still cannot exceed your maximum axle load weights or gross combined weight limit of the truck and trailer.

As for 4x4 or Tow mode: Tow/Haul mode does nothing other than change your transmission programming to shift up / down in a manner favorable for towing or hauling a heavy load.

4x4 is interesting. My old Range Rover has two tow ratings - 5500lbs normally, and 6500lbs in low range. This is because the Range Rover's limit isn't based upon frame or suspension strength...it is based upon lack of power. Using low range allows it to move a load easier. However, this is not the case with the Super Duty...it is limited by suspension and axles. Also, 4x4 cannot be used on dry pavement as you can in the Rover, so it would be pretty useless to tow in 4x4 except off-road or in snow.

 

A trip to CAT scales at a truck stop will give you all the weights you need as well. Might want to ask the RV place if you can do that before you can't bring it back. Just remember you will be adding gear, water, fuel, and potentially people later. But you will know your limit armed with that information.

 

OK, so here's the deal. Let's use the door post sticker shown on pg. 3 of this thread (a 2013 F350 SRW CCSB):

GVWR: 11,500 lb. - This is the maximum total weight of the truck, passengers, cargo, fuel and tongue/pin weight of any towed trailer according to Ford. (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating)

Front GAWR: 5,600 lb. - This is the maximum amount of weight you should put on the front axle of the vehicle. This is based on the lowest of the rating of the axle, the rating of the springs or the weight rating of the OEM tires at their maximum rated pressure. (Gross Axle Weight Rating)

Rear GAWR: 7,000 lb. - This is the maximum amount of weight you should put on the rear axle of the vehicle (again, based on axle/spring/tire ratings). Note in this case it is higher than the front axle.

Note at this point that the total of the axle ratings (12,600 lb.) is higher than the total of the GVWR. This is by design. Typically, you will hit the rear axle weight rating before the front when towing something (and vice-versa with a big plow hanging on the front).

The key is to keep the weight of everything within not only the GVWR of the truck, but also the individual GAWR's.

Let's start with a guesstimate of the truck's weight:
Total weight 8,400 lb.
Front axle weight at 4,800 lb.
Rear axle weight at 3,600 lb.
Remaining payload weight is 11,500 - 8,400 = 3,100 lb.
Up to 800 of that can be put over the front axle, but all of it could be put over the rear.

Let's take the following payload:

Driver at 200 lb.
Passenger at 125 lb.
Tools, maps, other detritus in the cab at 100 lb.
A full load of fuel at 200 lb.
A couple dogs in the back seat (or kids, your choice) at 150 lb. total.
775 lb. total

Pin weight of a 15,000 lb. toy hauler (with toys and junk loaded in) at, let's say, 3,000 lb.

Other than the trailer pin weight, the rest of the weight will probably be spread mostly evenly between the two axles. We'll put 375 on the front and 400 on the rear. Now we are at:
Total weight - 9,175 lb. (2,325 under GVWR)
Front axle - 5,175 lb. (525 under Front GAWR)
Rear axle - 4,000 lb. (3,000 under Rear GAWR)

Let's drop the toy hauler on it. Typically a fifth wheel will put pretty much 100% of the pin weight on the rear axle, so now we are at:

Total weight - 12,175 lb. (675 OVER GVWR)
Front axle - 5,175 lb. (525 under Front GAWR)
Rear axle - 7,000 lb. (Right at Rear GAWR)

In this case, we're over GVWR, but at or under GAWR on both ends.

If you look at the (2014) towing guide snippet shown on page 1 of the thread, the first column shows GCWR, which is Gross Combined Weight Rating. This is Ford's recommended maximum for the weight of the truck, cargo and trailer rolling down the road.

Note in that spec our sample truck has a GCWR of 23,500. We have a truck (without trailer) weighing in at 9,175 lb. and a 15,000 lb. trailer, for a total combined of 24,175, or 675 over the GCWR (Note that it is purely coincidental that the GCWR and GVWR are both 675 lb. over in this example - they aren't necessarily equal).

I'm not getting into the politics or "should I" or "shouldn't I" discussions of this sample being at or over limits. Just trying to straighten out some confusion or misconceptions regarding GVWR, GAWR and GCWR.

 

MTaaley, well stated and ez to follow for those still figuring it out !

The real difficulty for everyone is that for a new trailer, the weights are almost fictional until YOU can weigh it as YOU will load it...

In my particular case the 16600 gvwr rv actually weighs in the 13,000 lb range and LOADED UP is less than 14,000 lbs... not the 16600 it's rated at...

in the weigh ticket above it shows 11,840 weight on the trailer wheels,
if the trailer really weighed 16,600 that would put the pin weight up close to 5k lbs
and since the ticket only showed 6840 on the rear wheels- it's actually closer to 2k than 3k...

One thing about the gvwr though is that SOME states let you register it for more gvwr -
is it right or safe, not my call, the states just want their fees and say go for it.

the wording found here: http://ftp.txdmv.gov/pub/txdot-info/...e_chart_1c.pdf

"The gross vehicle weight of a truck is determined by adding the empty weight of the vehicle and the heaviest load that will be carried by the vehicle (carrying capacity) during the registration year"

notice it says WILL be carried during the registration year.... not should be carried

 

True, I didn't get much into trailer weight ratings and what stuff weighs.

But, for a good example, my trailer weighed 12,400 lb. out the door of the factory (I went on a factory tour and know that they individually weigh each trailer as built, so it's not a stock number). GVWR on my trailer is 15,500 lb.

We full-time in our rig and I had our truck (the 2002) and trailer weighed last summer on a per-axle basis by an RV weighing team (not a CAT scale). Our trailer scaled out right at 15,500 fully loaded with all our stuff (and tanks pretty much empty). Can't remember my pin weight right off hand, though, but it was close to, if not over, 3k.

Even though I was using the older truck at the time, the only rating I exceeded was the GCWR which, in 2002 for a DRW, was 20,000 lb. (So I was over by 3,000 lb, essentially). All my GAWRs and GVWRs were at or below specs.

Running the older truck right at (or in the case of GCWR, over) its limits was taxing on the drivetrain and helped things wear out quicker, not to mention making trips over the Rockies slow and tedious. That's why we picked up the 2013, which now I am safely under ratings on everything.

 

MTALLEY .....great information ....this is why I read the the forums !


Thanks !

Dan

 

I just wanted to highlight that you basically nailed by last CAT weight ticket. My Super Cab/Short bed/diesel weighs almost 8400# by itself, compared to a curb weight of something like 6400#. I have a few extras (toolbox, Ranch Hand), but nothing near 2000# extra. So don't think that just because the Ford payload number of "GVWR minus curb weight" means anything at all. You have to put your truck on a scale to know, until you have that receipt in hand it's all guess work.

"3/4 ton" and "1 ton" are entirely meaningless in this discussion, they're holdovers from times long past. An F250 that weighs 8400# with a GVWR of 9800# has 1400# of payload, but an F350 that weighs 8400# with a GVWR of 11,500# can carry 3100#. There are no differences between an F250 and F350 that would cause a major weight change if they're similarly optioned with the same wheelbase. A "half ton" F150 can carry significantly more than 1000#.

 

One other tidbit - how does Ford come up with the tow rating?

Look at the GCWR and subtract the empty weight of the truck and that is their maximum tow rating. Realize that passengers, fuel, stuff in the truck, heavy bumpers, winch, tool boxes, etc. subtracts from that tow rating.

 

Some of Ford's ratings seem arbitrary. For example, the 9900/10000 GVWR, there is no difference in hardware, correct? I would think the tow rating is based upon more than GCWR - maybe the question is how GCWR is determined? It seems there are a few factors:

-Cab style (with tow ratings dropping with each larger cab)
-Bed length (longer beds net lower tow ratings)

Now both of these things add increased overall weight. However, is it the axle strength which is the limitation? Or the increased leverage of a longer frame?

However, other things also affect tow capacity:

-Final drive ratio
-Engine type

It is true the diesel adds several hundred more pounds of weight. However, it also adds several hundred more pound-feet of towing power. Final drive directly affects towing capacity without adding or removing any real weight. So I suspect there is more to towing capacity than specifically weights.

Finally, how does Ford actually determine a tow rating? Does it stress-test frames, axles, engines, transmissions, and other driveline components until something breaks and then subtracts a few hundred pounds off the total when it broke and publish a tow rating? Or does it just buy an axle, from say Dana Corp, who publishes a maximum weight, and then goes by that?

Its also interesting than the curb weights Ford publishes for these trucks seem to be a bit lower than what people are actually finding. Is Ford weighing the trucks with no options, no paint, no oil / coolant / tranny fluid / gasoline / windshield washer fluid, and no driver?

 

from all I've heard it's with a 150 lb driver and no optional equipment...
i.e. no hitches, no bed covers, no sunroofs, etc....

so yes, once we get our fat ***** in there and load it up with optional stuff, it goes up

in my case, the weights are as loaded for camping - me, the wife, the dog, the laptop, etc... etc....

typically though I only put enough fresh water for emergency potty breaks

the rv weights are actually more relevant because they weighed ours as built coming out the door - but dry.