Not me! Not me! A brother is having power issues, and this will be a great example to share because of the nature of the problems. Yup... plural.

JOHN2001 recently acquired Torque Pro, recorded his PIDs, and sent me the data from some idling and a couple of WOT runs. Here's the cluttered graph I made:



There's more going on that I didn't graph... I'll get back to the graph in a sec.

John pulled his tuner before recording the data. At idle, he has a normal 475-500 Injector Control Pressure, but his Injector Pressure Regulator was operating at under 7%. Normal IPR on a warm stock truck at that pressure is about 10%-11%. Either the IPR is mechanically sticking, or the ICP sensor is reading too high (very common right now). An ICP sensor that reads too high will make the IPR operate lower than normal, sapping the real ICP and making the truck gutless.

Back to the graph, I see the ICP sagging at higher RPMs, but finally reaching 3000 PSI - but only in Over-Drive (lower RPM = lower fuel/oil demand). The Stinky Spike is what I call the condition when the ICP is lacking, the IPR is jacked up, and you suddenly let off the throttle. The IPR is smacking the HPOP on the butt to make it break into a full gallop, and the demand for oil falls off before the IPR can pull back on the HPOP reigns. The spike is the "thud" of the HPOP doing a face-plant into the door the injectors closed. That sagging ICP at high RPM and a pressure jump in Over-Drive? I know this one all too well. You're right foot is stretched and trying to push through the floor like a Flintstone braking system, yet the truck feels like your foot made it through. The shift up sinks your spine into the seat and the permagrin returns - but the rise in RPMs (increased fuel demand) inevitably wipes that grin off your face.

I see the boost with a negative number... that's not good, but it might be minor. The next step is to insert this formula into the EBP parameters on Torque Pro: (((A*256)+B)*0.03625)-BARO() If the EBP reads a negative number (vacuum) like the boost does (key on, engine off), then John may be looking at a bad BARO sensor. The sensor is usually in the PCM, so this would totally "suck". It's also possible the MAP and the EBP sensors are both bad with a shared negative reading... yuck again.

Moving on to an EBP that reads zero and a MAP that reads negative with the above changes to Torque (Key On Engine Off) - that puts the MAP sensor right in the Buck$Zooka crosshairs. If the MAP reads zero at KOEO, but goes negative while idling... that could be as simple as a dirty air filter or as ugly as a tired turbo. It's also possible I need to review my old stock data to be sure I didn't have a negative boost back then, as I still have the original MAP sensor (the only holdout on Stinky).

HPOP - it's too early to tell yet, because John has sensor issues. Once we can trust the ICP isn't lying, the IPR isn't sticking, or both - another run needs to be made to see if the ICP still falls at high RPM, recovers at OD, and has a Stinky Spike. If all of that happens, then we're looking at internal oil leaks, a weak LPOP, a weak HPOP, or fuel issues.

 

Rich, sorry to say but you are the new (I think this has been said before)
ernesteugene

I think the older users will get a kick or at least some nostalgia from this.


Post #12


This one



OK,I mean this all in fun...and at least I know what Rich is talking about...most of the time

Here is the last one, I think it may include graphs from above but it's ernesteugene, summed up.


I think this might of been a , sorry continue.
Disclaimer: There isn't one I can think of. Night.

 

Can you use AE to isolate those parts in your last paragraph?

 

You are correct, a thread was started where it was suggested ernesteugene would explain something, then I'd translate it into "Tugly-speak". I found it flattering, because ernesteugene is a smart guy with very technical posts, and I'd be picked for such a daunting task.

jetdoc - Once it's determined the ICP is truly tanking on the take-off, things get physical... with tools drawn from their sheaths for battle. The most recent revelation (thanks Cody) is to pressurize the oil rails in each head (HPOP line disconnected) with air and listen for gurgles. There is another experiment where the HPOP stays connected and the air is injected into the ICP sensor hole - but this test is to look for an IPR that stuck closed and a bad check valve on a stock HPOP. Many aftermarket HPOPs don't have check valves on the oil lines. This practice makes a form of an internal HPX - and it's likely why an external HPX will help one truck, but not the next one.

 

Do the valve cover have to be off? How much air pressure do you use?

 

Rich I can't thank you enough for taking the time to do this for me. I was at a loss and thinking I was crazy... Knowing that I'm sane and I know my truck better then anyone gave me credit for makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

My ICP sensor is not very old, maybe 2 years. It's a motorcraft I ordered from clay on a hunch that that might help improve performance.

Rich I don't recall making it to OD? With my foot Flintstoning it I have to hit 90 mph to kick into OD with my gearing.

MAP and EBP are original for when I bought the truck. The only thing I've done is clean the EBP and tube hoping that would help.

Air filter has less then 10k miles on it. The turbo has no play in any direction, it's a van turbo that I installed a couple years ago also. I'm also hitting 22-23 psi according to my mechanical gauge that is in the truck now tied into the MAP line before my boost fooler.

LPO according to my mechanical gauge stays above 50 psi or much higher with a wot pass (Wil confirm on my way home today). For fuel before I took my gauge out it was reading 72 psi at idle and lowest of 58 psi on a wot run.

With everything being said I'm going to rebuild the IPR And get my gauges back in the truck on my next day off.... I haven't gotten one of those in awhile now. Rich any other suggestions I over looked or should be adding to this? I'm sure you know how much this is killing me... It's going on a couple years now I've been dealing with this. If you want to see a video of that happens in 80e first had of a sad truck I had a thread I posted of 444 vs hole on YouTube... It's sad.

 

The system handles 3k+psi oil pressure. Im sure any pressure you can make will be fine and you pretty much cant hurt it.
You dont necessarily need to have the vc's off... but it would help if you had an injector oring gone south and could see the bubbling if they are off.

 

I have previously ran the truck with the VC's off to see if I had a leak at the base of the injector and all was good. I'll give this a shot as well.

I'm going to be replacing my original HPOP flex lines soon so now will be the ideal time I guess...

 

That slides the suspicion needle toward the IPR, but doesn't give the ICP an iron-clad alibi.


Good. That means you were likely looking out the window and letting Torque be your statistician. My stock configuration would go into OD at 80 MPH with WOT, I'll look at the numbers again.

This is one of the things I was beating the drum on with AE - KOEO, check MAP, EBP, and BARO to see if they match. Torque makes it easier, because it gives BARO a pressure instead of a voltage.

Torque is saying your boost is not even close to that, and your MAP shows a substantial vacuum while idling - very suspicious indeed.

If the ICP sensor is good, with oil and fuel supply good... the HPOP, IPR, and injector O-rings have a spotlight on them.

One thing I didn't mention yet, was the Fuel Injector Pulse Width would swing wide as the ICP read low. I've seen this in tuned trucks where the wide FIPW actually causes a drop in ICP... but this current situation behaves completely different: A tuning problem has the FIPW lock on to a set number and the ICP tanks. An ICP problem on a stock tune has the IPR and FIPW "hunting" to compensate for low ICP. The PCM is being told the ICP is low, even though the IPR is climbing. The PCM then says "Since the fuel isn't going to come out of the injector as fast as I want, I'll leave the injector on a little longer." This helps the truck achieve the goal of acceleration, but it's not a good fix - high EGTs come with it and it's not as powerful as correct ICP.

 

MAP reads 12.4
EBP reads 0.0
Barometer reads ( - )... Nothing

 

Good job on the EBP formula - BARO is good.

Either Michigan moved to Denver, or your MAP sensor is toast. I lean toward the toast thing... but only you know if you can see the Rockies from home or not.

 

As far as I can tell it's just as flat as ever.

MAP sensor and ipr rebuild first on the list... This is a lot better then throwing money at the problem like I've done so many times

 

Cry that one from the mountain top... or at least have your MAP sensor do it for you (since it's already there).

 

Alright I confirmed Lpop seems to be fine. Warm idling I have 27 psi. Crusing down the road at 64 I have 60 psi and it goes up when I get on it.

MAP reading at warm idle is 12.4 while EBP is 0.3 and bouncing around a little bit and BARO doesn't read a durn thing. At the same time injectorPW was at 3.0 trans temp at 133.2 and voltage was at 13.9. These numbers were taken from a screenshot while idling at a red light.

 

Either your PCM was flashed at some time, or some input is really out of whack. With your MAP sensor reading what it is, I won't even risk putting my foot in my mouth until that's resolved.