Ok, a few days ago my truck started to have a vibration which seemed to come from the engine especially when you hammer it down. The previous day I had drove my truck down onto the beach but didn't screw around for anything to get dislocated. I also had just recently switched over tanks. I had originally thought I must have bad gas in the one tank for whatever reason. I had also put seafoam in both tanks. So I went to the gas station and filled up with 93 oct premium which in my empty tank which is what I was running before because I had been playing around with advancing my timing. I then switched tanks thinking if the problem was comming from bad gas I could isolate it. Problem still existed after 30 miles so I figured my timing must have gone all to h###. I checked it and sure enough, I couldn't even see the mark! I made a few more marks in 10 degree incriments all the way back to 20 or 30 ATDC (est). I then checked it again and my scale lined up with about 20 ATDC(at that point there isn't even any marks to tell were its at, just damper area). I then cranked the distributor with the SPOUT removed as far clockwise (advance) as I could. I then took it for a drive and it was better but my timing still shows about 15-20 ATDC. What could be going on here? Its not even possible to turn it any more. Thanks for any help and sorry for being so long winded (again) but I just like to get things straight.

 

Sounds like your timing chain may have jumped a tooth, that would retard the timing.
Mark

 

Is this something I can fix myself or does it need special attention from a professional mechanic? I guess I just kinda frieked when I saw my timing was so far After TDC. I don't even know how the truck runs, it runs pretty good for how far off the timing is though.

 

Where you playing around with the timing before or after you started having problems?If the timing chain jumped a tooth on the gear the truck would really run bad.The mechanical timing,valves opening and closing would be off.I'm not sure that would affect the electrical timing.Did you put #1 cylinder at TDC before you messed with the timming?I would put #1 at TDC and check the balancer marks,it should read close to zero.I have seen the inner rubber sleeve on a dampner slip and make the timing marks off.If the balancer is close to zero then look at your rotor.It should be pointing to or just past the #1 terminal.If not put it there and re-check the timing.Make sure you are on the compression stroke when you set TDC on #1 cylinder.

Billy

 

now this may sound like the stupidest thing ever said because i am not sure if it would affect the timing at all. but i thought the computer might adjust timing if something was wrong. my suggestion is this. if you drove on the beach could you have gotten water under the distributer cap? that would certainly cause the rough running engine but probably does not affect your timing. i don't know, just a thought.
for what it is worth.

Rusty,

 

maybe investing in a new timing chain?



just a dumb Okie, Bones Springer

 

Yeah, I was playing around with my timing before the problems started. I had actually got my truck running quite well with the advance. It is definately something you can notice going down the road but it isn't so bad that I wouldn't drive my truck to work or even on the highway. When I was on the beach I basically just drove on and drove off just so we didn't have to climb down the steep bluffs. There wasn't any water that day to get my cap wet. Another scinario I thought about was a week or so ago (now that I think about it, this happened about the same time my problems started) my throttle got stuck the floor by the mats and I had put in the clutch before I even realized the throttle was stuck. The truck shot to 5500rpm for a few seconds before I got it shut down. The tach then went all the way around instead of going back to 0. But it did run just fine imediately after that as I recall. For some reason I think my computer is compensating for the lack of timing somehow or else I would think my engine wouldn't want to run at all.

To anwser your other question...no, I didn't put the #1 cylinder at TDC before I messed with my timing only because I have never heard of it being necessary. Could you explain the process of getting the #1 cylinder to TDC? I don't know. Tonight I will check my chiltons and see if I can find anything. Thanks a bunch. Cody

 

Just a thought, but I would bet on it jumping time at the distributor gear somehow from being loosened up to play with the advance more than jumping time at the timing chain. Valve timing being off by 15 or 20 degrees usually means a lot of back firing if it runs at all. To get room to turn the distributor farther: take off the cap, loosen the distributor bolt, lift up on the distributor until you just feel the distributor gear come loose from the cam gear (about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch), turn the rotor the oposite direction that you would turn the distributor to advance it (I think it is counter clock wise for V8 engines)about 1/8 turn should be more than enough, push it back down and turn the distributor back (retard) a little (about 1/16 of a turn, advance1/8 turn =45 degrees,turn back 1/16 = 22.5 degrees) that should put you close enough to start it up and dial it in with a timing light. I hope this helps a little.

Ziggy

 

Ok, tonight I did what you said (Zippy) and pulled the distributor up and turned the rotor back one tooth so it would advance the timing. Well, the timing advanced a good deal but the engine ran extremely rough and barely started in the first place with black smoke afterwards. I then turned it one more tooth just to see what would happen. The timing must have been somewere around 0 degrees or so, I cant tell exactly because I have to many marks right now on my damper to tell what is what. This time the truck bogged down to around 500 rpm and ran about as rough as the last time and then eventually stalled out after 30 seconds to a minute. So I decided that wasn't working and I set the rotor forward 3 teeth which would retard my timing 1 tooth from what it was originally. This time it also ran rough and eventually stalled out similarily to before but different. I cant quite describe it but it wasn't good anyway. What I found out from this is the engine ran best at the tooth position it was already in to begin with so the distributor must not have been disturbed. I am leaning towards the timing chain being off right now but I hope its not. That doesn't seem like an easy fix since the chain is right next to the block.

Right now im at a loss as to what could be wrong. If I didn't know my timing was so far off I might think it was my clutch slipping since it is on its way out the door anyway. Or maybe a bad ignition coil or ignition system. But my question is what could possibly cause my timing to be that far off and the truck still run DECENT. Right now im trying to think of any sensors that could cause this Any other suggestions for possibilities? Im afraid I might have to take it to a garage, and no doubt, just to find out what I have already known

 

My next guess since the computer controls so much is to do the self test on the computer. Haynes manual has a good description. You have to find the plugs under the hood near the aircleaner and jump across the right wires. (it is best to look at the pictures in a manual to do it right). The flashes of the engine light in the dash should tell you something if there is a computer or sensor problem. The manuals usually have a decent listing of what the codes mean or someone here could possibly clarify it. I have some really good factory info on codes, but it is for 87 and might be a little different for your truck. My truck stores codes without the light in the dash staying on, so maybe your truck is doing the same thing.

Good luck,
Ziggy

 

Thanks for the help Ziggy, this is starting to annoy me. Coincidentally, I did run the codes immediatly after the problem started, and nothing came through. BUT, I only ran the KOEO test and not the KOER test. So, tomorrow morning I will run both tests and see what I come up with. As far as my problem goes, the KOER is probably the more crucial of the two. So I will just keep my fingers crossed but im not expecting any miracles. Cody

 

gamehunter, did you remove the SPOUT cap the first time you checked the timing? This disconnects the PCM and is supposed to remove the PCM from the timing equation while checking with a timing light. Not sure if you have to disconnect the SPOUT while you are moving the distributor.
Just a thought.

 

Remove #1 sparkplug. Get a piece of wood dowel or something and insert it into the plug hole so that it contacts the top of the piston. Have someone else rotate the crankshaft slowly with a ratchet. Find the spot where the piston is highest(TDC). Look at the damper, it should be at 0 degrees. This will verify that the damper has not "spun" on the rubber isolator. At this time the rotor in the distributor should be pointing at #1 plug tower. If you cannot get it to point at #1 tower without lifting it and realigning the gear teeth than something in the valve train has moved. Most likely the chain, you did say your throttle stuck and the motor revved unloaded to 5500 rpm. On an older high mileage engine this can cause the chain to jump. I can't see the distributor gear moving as it is pressed on and held in place with a roll pin. Pull the front cover and check the cam timing marks.
Mark

 

OK, I think im FINALLY starting to get somewere. I went and reran the codes for KOEO and KOER test. KOEO test returned nothing but the 11 code for system ok. However, the KOER test dished out a number of codes.....
#41="HEGO sensor circuit indicates a system lean"
or #41="No HEGO switching detected"
#18="SPOUT circuit open or spark angle word failure
or #18="IDM circuit failure or SPOUT circuit grounded
#77="Operator error" (I don't know what I was doing wrong, same as always)
#52="Power steering pressure switch open"
or #52="Power steering pressure switch always open or closed"


I ran the tests twice just to verify what I pulled and it checked out the same both times. For some reason Code #18 seemes like it might be the likely culprit. And yes, every time I check or readjust my timing I remove the SPOUT connector so it releases the base timing. Would could I have done to the spout connector to drigger code 18? I am sure I push it in all the way every time.

OK, besides testing the codes, I also checked the cylindar position by placing the dowel down the cylindar and waiting for it to get to TDC by turning the crank. What I found out is that when my #1 cylindar is at its peak, the damper is in the same area as when I check my timing with the SPOUT removed. HMMM, it was showing WAYYYYYYYY off rather than close to 0 degrees like you said it should. I have heard of quite a bit of 4.9 engines having the damper turn, I dont know about the 5.0. THEN, while the #1 was at TDC I opened the cap up and the rotor was pointed at the oposite side of the distributor. Directly accross from the #1 terminal (I forget what terminal that is). Hold on here, how is that possible?????????!!!!!!!!!! Could the timing chain be off that much? I am just at a loss. I am running out of ideas and I know you guys are too!!