Hi all,
My 1987 2.9 v-6 , has a crazy problem.
this is a rebuilt engine,all normal stuff replaced,
when the temp outside is above 70F it has no power, lucky to get it to run on the flat , must keep RPM'S above 2500 to 3000. so only getting to 3rd gear ( manual 5 speed overdrive)
Now when temp outside is 70F or below it runs pretty normal.
But in order to drive it , i Have the timimng set at 24 BTDC,and it should really be at 14 BTDC.
Have replaced all sensors with used ones from another engine.Their condition unknown, ( used,from junk yard)
Cant afford to just throw out $30 at every sensor to troubleshoot which one is bad, thats if it is even a sensor,,
Fuel pressure,tested,new fuel filter,air cleaner,plugs,wires,cap,rotor.
Any and all help is welcome.
Thanks...
Tom

 

You are one tooth off on your distributor.

 

^+1, the posted info in your timing is a clue. Be extra persnickety about getting #1 piston at tdc on the compression stroke & re-installing the distributor.
You may have more than one problem, so do you have a lit CEL, if so, scan the computer for trouble codes & post All code Numbers, as they can offer up good trouble shooting clues. Let us know how it goes.

 

Thank you both for the replies,
will check it out soon as i can , its 29 F here,
hoping for wed or thur as it shud be near 50F
as far as the codes on the computer go , i have tried and tried to count the flashes and always get lost in the numbers ,
it doesnt have a regular scanner connection...
the CEL is on and has been since i have had this truck.

 

Not a big deal moving your dist a notch or two....I had to turn mine 180 deg.
Disconnect neg batt cable, loosen all belts, remove dist cap and wires, remove the dist hold down bolt(1/2" wrench), turn crank (in front of the engine) with 19mm deep socket and line up timing marks at 12 BTDC( use white nail polish and mark 0,12,28 marks and the timing marker). Now lift the dist, rotate and drop back into place...the rotor tip should lineup with the #1 spark plug post in the cap.

 

I do not see how being one tooth off in either direction will affect the way it runs. The bowl of the distributor can be rotated to get the timing where you want it to be, within limits. He has gone to 24BTDC, so he's able to move the timing a whole lot, 10 degrees more than normal.
Moving the distributor will just let him move the bowl more in one direction, and do NOTHING to change the timing.
I wonder who rebuilt the engine and if it has run this way since the re-build. If so, I wonder if the cam timing is off.
I would also make sure that the shorting plug is removed when the timing is set, as failure to do that will REALLY make your truck run like it has no guts.
I would also check fuel pump pressure and delivery. If it is low, the fact that the ECM tries to richen a cold engine would make it run better when the temp is down, and be less powerful when the temp rises.
You can use a VOM - analog - to check your EEC-IV for trouble codes. You can get the codes to repeat and repeat and repeat until you get the 'timing' down so you know when to expect a 'long pause', how long it should be, etc. It just takes TIME and effort to pay attention.
What I did was to use a pencil & paper. I would make a mark when the light lit, or the needle pulsed, and if there were other pulses close together, make marks close together. when the pulses were farther apart, I'd make marks farther apart. It is not an exact science. After making the marks, it was a lot more 'understandable' to compare the pulses to the marks on a second {or third, fourth, etc} time around. If the marks were far apart... see if the pulses seemed the same way,etc. The book that came with my reader had examples of the blinks on several pages, and helped.
tom

 

I also agree that one tooth off either way should not be causing my problems.
I have plenty of range to adjust the timing either advance or retarding.

ok so here are my codes i read, hope someone can make sense of them.
ll l ll llll
ll l ll llll
l llll l llll
l

as far as how long it has been having this problem is since i put it in couple months ago, estmate 500 to maybe 1500 miles
problem right from day one.
who rebuilt it , some machine shop in NJ, so are the chain/cam/timed correctly, I do not know. Timing cover was already installed.
I was told it has the following:
New cam
new chain/gear
new crank
10 over bore and 10 over pistons installed.
new lifters
new oil pump
heads checked and valve job with new springs
so the only things that are used are the injectors(which were already installed)
the distriutor came from my original engine.
all the sensors came from my original engine.
along with the air intake.
and all the sensors were changed from ones i got at the junk yard to include the map sensor on the fire wall.
I also changed the Computer.
The fuel pressure was tested and it is correct, at engine off and when running

I did not change the 02 sensor,the differential lock sensor,or the speedometer sensor(which is on end of speedometer cable.
when timing , yes the jumper plug was removed for timing.
before i advanced the timing it would also do this after about 15 minutes of driving.
these lights would come on, ABS,Rear Differential lock
Hope this info has helped in finding out where my problem is .

 

I have found these V-6s are VERY sensitive to being one tooth off on the dizzy, one tooth one way or the other, my 2.8 will either start and idle but thats it, stalls as soon as you give throttle, OR it will barely start and only run with your foot giving it constant throttle, and won't idle at all.
Drop it into the sweet spot, and she purrs.

Just my 30 years of experience with the Ford cologne V-6.

 

Those V-6s are the pickiest of Ford motors. It sounds like you need to readjust the timing from the beginning. Reset the cam time, then do the dizzy timing. One tooth can mean the world to those little *******s. Lol.

 

Ok,
you guys have convinced me to reset the distributor.
Seeing as i don't know how many teeth i'm off or in which direction,
i know the cap is marked with 1 ,
so as a starting point from like a clock, where should the number 1 mark on the cap be facing ??
If i looked down on the cap should it be like at 12'oclock, 6'oclock or where?
, just need a standard starting point ..

Thanks...
P.M.
Also have my code readings helped ???

 

Well, I don't buy it. If the distributor rtor points to Paramus when the #1 piston is at TDC, you move the distributor so the #1 wire is right there. If it points to Bedminster, then you move the distributor there. It does not make any difference as long as the rotor is pointed to #1 when you set the timing. The only difference possible is if the distributor cannot be move so the rotor points to #1, THEN you have to lift it out, and re-position the gear relative to the cam & crank. Period.
A 2.8 is not a 2.9. The older models also did not use a regular timing set, they used two gears. I know, because I helped replace one that had failed. The teeth on the cam gear were made of plastic, and did not last as long as one might desire. The plastic became brittle, and turned into chunks. Engine does not run good when that happens.
If you can connect a timing light, and pull the shorting plug, the timing should be at 10 BTDC. The computer will set the timing at a fixed 10BTDC until it warms up, and then start to fiddle with it for performance and mpg purposes. You could test the timing, whether you reposition the distributor or not, with the engine warmed up fully. The timing mark should move back and forth as you rev the engine. I would check that the timing is fixed from a cold start, and then becomes flexible after warming up.
I timed a Lima after doing the timing belt. I read in the manual the timing should be fixed for a set amount of time {maybe temp?} after startup, and I should have been able to set the 10 BTDC when cold. I did, and it ran like cr*p. No guts. Had to rev it up to get it to move out of its own way. Finally realized what was going on, pulled the shorting plug, reset the timing, and it was a LOT better, with actual power.
The fact that stuff changes when it warms up leans toward the ECM doing 'something' when it finds a warm engine. Two things came to mind, timing and fuel mix. Both become adjustable once the engine goes into 'closed loop' when warmed up.
If the MAP sensor goes kerfluey, the idle in most cases become wobbly, as the computer tries to follow the 'load' indicated. The fuel air mix will be too lean, too rich and varying between those two conditions.
There just aren't that many parts to check. I'd check the timing, as noted, to see what happens from cold to hot. The actual timing can advance a WHOLE lot when the engine is fully warmed up. The position of the distributor will have little effect on that as long as it is positioned relative to the moving parts as noted before.
tom

 

If the pips are as indicated, I think the codes noted were:
21 ECT engine coolant temperature sensor out of range
24 IAT intake air temperature sensor out of range
14 Ignition pickup was erratic

If the engine was not warmed up fully, the first two will show up, but go away after the engine reaches operating temperature.
The 14 code is informative, in that you are seeming to have problems with timing. The pickup inside the distributor is known to have deterioration of the 'goo' that holds the connectors where the TFI plugs in from the bottom. Most times they don't fall apart until you have to replace the TFI. If your TFI has been replaced, the connectors may be making intermittent contact. Beyond that I don't know what would cause intermittent except a failing pickup or TFI or goofed wires.
tom

p.s codes taken from here:

http://www.thorssell.net/hbook/2digit.html

 

If your trouble code posting & tomw's decoding ring got it right, the intake air & engine coolant temp sensors may have a problem. If so, their PID output will be off & they'll send the computer corrupt info & the computer will send the ICM bad instructions on when to fire the spark plugs & corrupt the fuel injector squirt timing, so those two sensors can play a Big part in how well it'll run.

SO, use your multimeter & measure their resistance on the ohms scale to see if they're in spec. If so, at KOEO check to see if they're getting in spec Reference voltage, or if they have an electrical connector pin/socket/wiring problem. If both have out of spec Ref voltages, suspect a wiring, computer output electrical connector, or internal computer problem. Have a look through this link for sensor resistance values & other helpful info. www.oldfuelinjection.com

As tomw has said, the distributor mounted ICM is subjected to a lot of engine heat & is a known problem part, so check its condition as he suggested. More thoughts for consideration, keep us posted on your trouble shoot.

 

My progress:
Today I reset the distributor to 1 tooth advanced,then to 1 tooth retarded,
Results were no change,ran the same no power.
So now next step is to replace the 2 sensors mentioned and I have another distributor to replace the one that is currently installed.The distributor will be replaced first, hopefully I wont need the sensors...time will tell
Wont be able to do this work until this friday or this weekend,
thanks for reading my codes tomw,and information regarding them ..also the additional info from pawpaw.

 

Go to the fuel injector site, look up those sensor values & use your multimeter to test the sensors resistance to make sure they're out of spec, before replacing them.