flex fuel???
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New User
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flex fuel???
why did i buy this piece? ok flex fuel.. what's the allternative fuel and where can u find it...and who really cares we won the war right??..*thank you troops*!!!! n e body out there hate there ranger as much as i do??
Last edited by Ken00; Jun 21, 2003 at 09:07 PM.
Laughing Gas
Joined: May 2003
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From: Scenic Wisconsin
flex fuel???
Ethanol is available as an alternative fuel in some states. I have never used it, but I've seen it in Minnesota. Some fleets are also running on pressurized natural gas, but this involves significant modifications.
I think the whole flexible fuel thing was done to keep the EPA at bay for awhile. You'll certainly have no problem if you stick with plain old gasoline
How come you don't like your Ranger? I love mine!!
I think the whole flexible fuel thing was done to keep the EPA at bay for awhile. You'll certainly have no problem if you stick with plain old gasoline
How come you don't like your Ranger? I love mine!!
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flex fuel???
E-85 Flex Fuel (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) is available throughout the midwest. FOr a list of retailers and the benefits, stop by www.e85fuel.com - FYI - the fuel is usually $.20/gallon cheaper than regular gasoline, has an octane rating above 100, and increase horsepower - not to mention the environmental & security benefits of its use. I have over 100K miles on E-85 - love it.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Connecticut
flex fuel???
Hello, welcome to FTE!
There is some interesting reading on ethanol and other FFV-related stuff under the heading of Alternate Fuels & FFV in the 3.0L Technical Info & Tips Thread.
There is some interesting reading on ethanol and other FFV-related stuff under the heading of Alternate Fuels & FFV in the 3.0L Technical Info & Tips Thread.
Laughing Gas
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,136
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From: Scenic Wisconsin
flex fuel???
Originally posted by online_kingus
the fuel is usually $.20/gallon cheaper than regular gasoline
the fuel is usually $.20/gallon cheaper than regular gasoline
Also, from what I have read, the major beef about corn-based ethanol production in the U.S. is that it actually takes more energy to produce the ethanol than is yielded in fuels. Here's an interesting link: http://unisci.com/stories/20013/0813012.htm
Last edited by oppy; Jul 18, 2003 at 05:42 PM.
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flex fuel???
There is a decrease in fuel economy, usually about 10%. It varies with the size of the engine. On a Ranger, the difference may be 1 to 2 mpg MAX! So, if you are saving $.20/gallon, the math does work. I know some folks that drive the Chevy Tahoe for example, and they lose more mpg. It gets a great deal closer on the checkbook then... As far as the net energy balance of ethanol, there are just as many studies showing the opposite, in fact there are more. I work to promote ethanol, but I use the product as well. Let me know if you would like more information, http//www.e85fuel.com is the best place to start!!
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Laughing Gas
Joined: May 2003
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From: Scenic Wisconsin
flex fuel???
Originally posted by online_kingus
As far as the net energy balance of ethanol, there are just as many studies showing the opposite, in fact there are more.
As far as the net energy balance of ethanol, there are just as many studies showing the opposite, in fact there are more.
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flex fuel???
There are several, if you would like I can email one to you. The negative one you see all the time is by a guy named Pimental, or his colleagues. I have a copy of a study done by Dr. Bruce Dale, it breaks down Pimental's study line by line, and shows how the study came up with the conclusions it did - probably the best one I have seen.
Laughing Gas
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,136
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From: Scenic Wisconsin
flex fuel???
Actually, I've seen quite a bit of the available data. It seems to me that the results of the studies are almost always interpreted in a way that most benefits whatever result was desired. Funny how that works Check out a pro-ethanol website and the picture is rosy indeed...look at a fossil fuels site and the opposite is true...and both have reams of data to show you why they are right! Of course, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
My main problem with ethanol is that there is no way anyone would be able to afford it if not for the huge tax subsidies given to mega-corporations like ADM. If it was really such a great idea, why does the government have to pump cash into it?
Check out a pro-ethanol website and the picture is rosy indeed...look at a fossil fuels site and the opposite is true...and both have reams of data to show you why they are right! Of course, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.My main problem with ethanol is that there is no way anyone would be able to afford it if not for the huge tax subsidies given to mega-corporations like ADM. If it was really such a great idea, why does the government have to pump cash into it?
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flex fuel???
I will give you credit, that is by far the biggest beef with ethanol. Several years ago, the big corporations produced all of the ethanol, like ADM. Now, that is not the case. A very high percentage of the ethanol plants being built now, and for the last few years, are farmer owned. As far as the subsidies go, technology has been slow, but take into consideration that 10 years ago, you could create 2.2 gallons of ethanol from one bushel of corn (plus other things), whereas now, you are in the 2.8 gallon range. Everyone has a very close eye on the industry, and now are changing the laws that this subsidy will be from income tax dollars, versus highway trust fund dollars. Before long, the industry will not get any subsidies. What many don't know and understand is just how many industries get subsidies. For example, electricity, oil refineries, railroad, auto makers, etc., all get their own checks in the mail. Ethanol is just something that will hopefully help us cut down on our dependency to the oil gods, clean up our air, and will be around for ever - since it is renewable.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Connecticut
flex fuel???
Good debate going here guys. I read through the article that oppy referenced and there were some interesting points made and questions raised. I would be just as interested to read Dr. Dale's rebuttal.
online_kingus, is there any way you can send me a copy of the results of Dr. Dale's study?
online_kingus, is there any way you can send me a copy of the results of Dr. Dale's study?
Laughing Gas
Joined: May 2003
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From: Scenic Wisconsin
flex fuel???
Here's a pro-ethanol summary prepared by some guys at the Department of Agraculture a few years ago.
One thing that I really don't understand is why the authors of the research are taking energy credits for "coproducts" produced after the corn is fermented and the ethanol is extracted.
If we took a look at petroleum "coproducts" made from crude oil other than those used in gasoline (literally hundreds of products), a comparison between the 2 energy sources would be ridiculous - petroleum wins that argument hands-down.
Also keep in mind that the use of grain mash after the alcohol has been removed is not a new idea. It is already being used (and has been for many years) with brewery waste, which is converted into various animal feeds. The byproducts of fermentation are indeed valuable, but certainly not unique to ethanol production for fuels.
I think any study which includes energy credits for coproducts should be viewed with some skepticism.
For the record, I am not at all against the use of alternative fuels, but the bottom line, IMO, is that the use of ethanol, at least when produced using today's technology, just doesn't make economic or environmental sense. It is simply too expensive and takes too much fossil fuel to produce.
For a little counterpoint, check out this link.
One thing that I really don't understand is why the authors of the research are taking energy credits for "coproducts" produced after the corn is fermented and the ethanol is extracted.
If we took a look at petroleum "coproducts" made from crude oil other than those used in gasoline (literally hundreds of products), a comparison between the 2 energy sources would be ridiculous - petroleum wins that argument hands-down.
Also keep in mind that the use of grain mash after the alcohol has been removed is not a new idea. It is already being used (and has been for many years) with brewery waste, which is converted into various animal feeds. The byproducts of fermentation are indeed valuable, but certainly not unique to ethanol production for fuels.
I think any study which includes energy credits for coproducts should be viewed with some skepticism.
For the record, I am not at all against the use of alternative fuels, but the bottom line, IMO, is that the use of ethanol, at least when produced using today's technology, just doesn't make economic or environmental sense. It is simply too expensive and takes too much fossil fuel to produce.
For a little counterpoint, check out this link.
Last edited by oppy; Jul 21, 2003 at 08:23 PM.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Connecticut
flex fuel???
If we took a look at petroleum "coproducts" made from crude oil other than those used in gasoline (literally hundreds of products), a comparison between the 2 energy sources would be ridiculous - petroleum wins that argument hands-down.
oppy, you raise some valid questions, especially with regard to the economics of the situation. But one very important factor regarding ethanol, bio-diesel and other alternative fuels is the current US dependency on foreign oil. IMHO, if we were to better implement these alternative types of fuels into mainstream America we would be much less reliant on the OPECs of the world and therefore in a much stronger position to decide our own destiny without regard to global politics (and lunatics). I think the kind of independence that alternative fuels might provide us with must be viewed as one of the key objectives of the whole alternative fuels program. It's not necessarily just about market economics.
Viewed in that light, the government subsidies don't seem as evil to me as maybe they might otherwise.
Laughing Gas
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,136
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From: Scenic Wisconsin
flex fuel???
Originally posted by Rockledge
But one very important factor regarding ethanol, bio-diesel and other alternative fuels is the current US dependency on foreign oil.
But one very important factor regarding ethanol, bio-diesel and other alternative fuels is the current US dependency on foreign oil.
I'm sure as technology advances, much more efficient methods will become available to manufacture alternative fuels. Until then, however, the real world runs on economics.