Hello all,

I've got a bit of a hybrid and I'm trying to locate brake parts. I have a 1972 Newell motorhome with a chassis that contains many Ford parts. Although Newell produced their own chassis' I'm told that the brakes were from a Ford F-600. Since the motorhome was built in early 1972 I would assume that the parts would have come from 1971 or earlier. It has 4 wheel drum brakes with one wheel cylinder per wheel on the front and 2 wheel cylinders per wheel on the rear. It has 22.5 inch wheels with 6 lugs per wheel. In order to pull the rear drums it also appears that you have to pull the axle shafts out of the rear end. I'd like to find the rear wheel cylinders. There are also 2 remote vacuum boosters in the system as well. One is for the front brakes and one for the rear. They take fluid from the master cylinder and send it to the brakes. I don't know where I would get these rebuilt or replaced if they failed, but I'd like to get the ball rolling now.
If anyone has a brake part diagram for a big Ford of this vintage I sure would appreciate getting a look at it. Thanks!!!
Bob Kopicki
Massillon OH

 

Try asking over here. And, good luck.
Luxury Coach Lifestyle - The Original Newell Forum. Bringing Luxury Coach Owners Together.

 

Sounds like it is all standard Ford medium truck parts, but finding out exactly what model and year may take a good parts person. Once you get the actual brake sizes (width and diameter) that will start you towards a particular model - F600 most likely as you already suspect, but remember there are almost always several different size braking systems for a given model, depending upon how the truck was spec'd and GVWR

Dual or split braking systems were a extra cost option on these chassis as well. So it would not be totally unexpected to find two boosters.

The parts manual would also be helpful to have - available to buy online on CD - it has helped me plenty.

David

 

David, where did you get your parts manual. At this point I would love to at least get a peek at one to verify that it was applicable to our coach. I notice that your '70 C600 lists MT40 after it. Does it have an Allison MT40 transmission? Our Newell has an MT43 transmission with a retarder. This too I've had troubles getting an operation manual for. I have no idea how to properly use the retarder or what regular service it should receive. Do you have any literature on this transmission or know where I can find it? We also have a 2 speed differential which I would like to read the proper techniques for it's use too.

I do belong to the Newell forum but have had little luck with obtaining information for our classic there or from Newell itself. The Newell forum seems more aligned with newer units.

Thanks,

Bob Kopicki
72 Newell w/Ford chassis, DD 8.2L TD, M43

 

Why would Newell make their own chassis, then buy brake, steering, powertrain and other components elsewhere, when they could buy a complete rolling P500 chassis from FoMoCo?

From the mid 1950's thru 1976, the rolling chassis that was used on P500 (P Series Parcel Delivery) was used by many Class A makers, Condor for one. P500 is similar to F500/600.

What engine/trans does your Newell have? Do you know what size the front/rear brake shoes are?

Here are four P Series 1964/72 Ford truck parts catalog pics, compare with yours. The brake parts were also used on F500/600, but the front axle, front/rear suspension is unique to P Series.

 

For the life of me I cannot remember the name of the company that has the parts manuals on CD right now. Something about auto-lit comes to mind. NumberDummy has the answer her he directed me to the source once.

Yes, I have the six speed Allison MT40. As far as using the retarder, it is most effective at or near maximum engine rpm. No service to be done per say - you have a red light on the dash, when it lights that signifies that the transmission fluid has exceeded about 350/380 degrees, time to let it cool by reducing the retarder use.

You will note what looks like a super transmission cooler in front of the radiator, this is what dispels the heat.

so coming to the top of a downgrade, and using the standard medium / heavy truck driving practice of going down the hill in the same or one gear lower than you climbed the hill, you lock the transmission in one of the normal driving ranges to get the engine rpm up close to maximum and then use the retarder as needed to maintain speed.

I do have the parts and rebuild paper manuals on the older MT series six speeds (used up until about 1972) which I purchased off Ebay. I also have the Ford owners manual for my 1970 dump truck which describes the retarder use. Again purchased off Ebay.

David

 

hipoparts.com: Ford truck & car parts catalogs on C/D's.

faxonautolit.com: owners & shop manuals, vacuum & wiring diagrams, sales & accessory brochures.

 

I believe Newell built their own chassis so they could put things where they wanted and not be locked into any certain length or width. My coach, for example, is stretched 1 foot longer than their standard model of the time to accommodate a chauffer's quarters in the rear. I have contacted Newell and the Newell forum but I've had no luck trying to obtain any information other than the original drawings and purchase order for my coach (number 96).

I know that it originally came with a Ford 390 engine. I assumed that the transmission was replaced with the engine in 1981, but were MT43's built that late?

I would be willing to pay for a copy of the Ford manual section on retarder use. Is there any information on shifting a 2 speed differential in that manual too?

My brakes do not look (exactly) like any of the parts diagrams listed. My rear brakes have the wheel cylinders on the top and bottom and both hubs have 6 lugs. I have not been home to pull the wheels and rear axles to measure the shoes and wheel cylinder bores, that will have to wait until next month.

Thanks to all for their replies!!

 

Bill,

By the way, my front axle has a Rockwell tag riveted to it. Did Ford use any Rockwell parts or was this another thing that Newell did. I would like to post a couple of pictures of the axles, brakes and so forth but the "add picture" button only seems to go to URL's and not somewhere I could link to a picture on my computer.

The coach originally had a Ford 390 in it, but now has a Detroit 8.2L turbo-diesel manufactured in 1980. The transmission is an Allison MT43 with a retarder and there is an electrically shifted 2 speed differential.

The brakes have 2 vacuum boosters, one for the front and one for the rear. I don't know if any of the big Ford's used these or not. Although they are working fine now, I'd love to find out if they can be rebuilt or replaced with something more modern.

Thanks again for taking the time to post the diagrams and web sites.

 

Hey,

I will scan and post the relative section on the retarder usage. The only information that I have on shifting the two speed with a automatic is in a 1974 owners manual. I will see if I can did that up and post it as well.

Newel might have built there own chassis, but it is much more likely that they simply modified a existing off the shelf chassis. That way they did not incur the R&D development costs. Modifying a existing chassis is a normal procedure in the motorhome / custom builder worlds. They have never been constrained by a particular chassis, with the exception of the very lowest end units, where the profit margins did not allow a certain amount of customization.

This unrestrained modification of a particular chassis though, while a boon to get a particular motor coach where it needed to be is also a bain when it comes to finding out exactly what are of the shelf parts and what was custom made for a production run of either quite few or maybe just a one off "special"

Your Newell should have come standard with a 391. Which is a FT engine, while the 390 are FE engines. FE engines are light duty truck engines with inferior parts in comparison to there medium duty FT cousins. Many changes, the biggest being the duty cycle. FE's are not designed to move the same loads over the same roads as the FT's. IE the FE are designed to move lighter loads day in and day out than the FT models. Installing a FE in place of a load that needs a FT to move it gets you more power, but not power that you can use day in and day out slogging along with the heavier load as the engine will self destroy itself from excessive combustion chamber heat / detonation in short order. Retarding the timing does not work as you have to retard it so much that the engine performs poorly. You have to drop the actual static compression ratio so that you can run a reasonable amount of advance.

Hence - Static compression ratios are considerably lower on a FT over a FE (as well as other longevity with a load changes) in the order of a point to a point and half plus a little.

As to the Allison, Allison pretty much phased out the older 6 speed MT30 and MT40 series (along with there 31-32-41-41-42 sub models) in favor of the 4 speed MT640 and 5 speed MT650 series (along with there 41-42-42-51-54-53-54 etc. sub series) in and around 1972.

I seriously doubt the transmission was changed when the engine was, these transmissions generally have a much longer life than the engnes. Even if it was though, it was probably replaced by a factory reman, which believe it or not some models are still available (MT30 is obsolete, the MT40 is still available reman). I installed a factory reman MT40 in place of the original MT30 in my own dump a couple of years ago. The PO's practice of hauling a Cat 955 loader behind the truck, which only exceeded the MT30 GVW rating by at least 50% was the likely cause. After all the Cat alone on a trailer was 32-34k ----- and the total GVW rating on the MT30 in only 32k, truck included!

David

EDIT - I see another post now. NEVER MIND most of what I posted - I had no idea that you were running a diesel now. How many speeds is your Allison behind that 8.2? Are we dealing with a 4 speed MT643 which is a different transmission than the older 6 speed MT series?

 

390's were only installed in 1961/76 Passenger Cars & 1968/76 F100/350's.

What looked like a 390 was probably an FT engine (330 2V M/D - 330 2V H/D - 361 2V/4V - 391 4V), that one would expect to have a Transmatic (Allison) behind it.

1966/76 390's would have come with C6's (17 trans pan bolt holes).

 

I never actually saw the engine that was originally in this coach. I was told that it was a Ford 390. At this point it is moot anyway since I do know what is in it now and one of the few receipts included with the motorhome was the one for the engine replacement in 1981. There was also the Detroit operators manual which details starting, operating techniques and basic maintenance of the Fuel Pincher engine.

The transmission is another story since the only documentation was an Allison installation manual. This is what led me to believe that it was replaced with the engine (since there is NO paperwork from when the coach was new). Either way the coach has about 135,000 miles and about 50,000 on the engine. Both should be pretty low for the Allison. The MT43 in my coach has 6 forward speeds, 1 reverse, neutral, no park and a retarder. It does have an enormous transmission cooler in front of the radiator. I spoke to WW Williams (who owns the rights to this transmission now) about an operation manual but they do not have any. They suggested a parts and rebuild manual, but I'm afraid that manual would not have operating techniques in it. David, you mentioned that you have the parts and rebuild manual for the MT series, does it have operating techniques and a maintenance schedule in it? If it does I may spend the money for one on e-bay.

As for the chassis being off-the-shelf, that would make me SO happy to simply look for a P-600 or something similar. I'm afraid that Newell prided themselves on making their own chassis' however and I won't be so lucky. This link: Our History: The Legacy of L.K. Newell - Newell Coach is a brief history of Newell Coaches where they mention building their own "Pusher" chassis. Mine has a front engine so.....clear as mud what I've got.

The motorhome is 32 feet long and weighs about 17,800lbs empty if that's of any help identifying it's chassis.

Still, my highest priority is to find out what brakes I have and then work on getting info on my steering, rear axle and transmission.

Thanks!

Bob

 

Try faxonautolit.com for the manuals. Faxon located in Riverside CA, store open Monday-Saturday. If you call ask for Ed (Faxon), but Ed isn't there on Saturday.

Largest stock of Ford obsolete parts on the planet: Green Sales Co. in Cincinnati OH / greensalescompany.com ~ 800-543-4959 / 513-731-3304.

All the parts personnel are ex-Ford parts guys. They're not the uncaring, clueless parts clucks found at most chain autoparts stores in todays world.

 

Bill,

Thanks for the links. I will be putting them to use....just as soon as I can identify what it is that I have. I'd happily buy a parts book if I knew I was buying one for the correct chassis.

David,

Were you able to find the section on retarder use and shifting the 2 speed diff. Those would be very helpful.

Thank you both for your advice.

Bob

 

Notice F/R brake shoe size.