Chip Chasers (prospective buyers)! Read this first!
#16
04-11-2013, 11:03 AM
More Turbo
#17
04-11-2013, 11:39 AM
Join Date: Dec 2006
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#18
04-11-2013, 12:46 PM
Postmaster
#19
04-11-2013, 01:03 PM
#20
04-11-2013, 01:23 PM
More Turbo
fuel pressure and EGT are add ons. you can do the guage pod or alot of the obd II set ups will let you add them if you don't want the pod.
#21
05-05-2013, 10:45 AM
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Good read, Tugly, the humor makes it read more like a novel than tech talk 
I was ready to start mods on my '01 White Winifred , DIY 6637 was almost in the cart, but I think the $50 that was going that way should be hidden under the mattress and put towards gauges and plan the investment in AE & the EI01. Amazingly, with 223K on her, no smoke to speak of... Good sign I guess
I was ready to start mods on my '01 White Winifred , DIY 6637 was almost in the cart, but I think the $50 that was going that way should be hidden under the mattress and put towards gauges and plan the investment in AE & the EI01. Amazingly, with 223K on her, no smoke to speak of... Good sign I guess
#22
05-05-2013, 11:15 AM
#23
05-05-2013, 11:21 AM
Hotshot
I've got an Edge CTS with EGT probe on my 02. The Boost on mine hits 24 then goes to 14 for some reason. Once I let off of it, give it a minute or 2, then it starts reading properly again. I was wondering it there might be something in the hose blocking it. Actually, it wouldn't read beyond 14psi after I installed it for the longest time. Then, for some reason, it started reading like it's suppose to. The ICP does drop off at higher RPM's when in a hotter tune. But, a good friend of mine said that a set of Hybrid Injectors would cure that as they actually use less oil than stock sticks. He said I'd be better off spending the money on fresh sticks over an aftermarket HPOP. Of course, the hybrids would also be coupled with a 38R. Bigger sticks without more air would not make much sense.
#25
05-06-2013, 03:02 AM
More Turbo
Dual EGT so you can monitor the temps in both exhaust manifolds separately. If you have one side running cooler for instance, then you know you possibly have a bad injector.
Fuel pressure because it is not available through the OBDII and is important when diagnosing the fuel system.
Boost because if your using the OBDII to read boost your actually reading MAP and if you hit, I think, 22 psi for a certian amount of time the pcm can defuel to drop boost to where the PCM thinks it should be, and if you have a over boost code regulator, it won't be accurate.
And a OBDII gauge to monitor the hundreds of other sensors in your truck.
I bought an Infinity from DP tuner which acts as a complete engine monitor, gauges, and can be used as a programmer. They are coming out with a hub so you can hook up other sensors to monitor such as fuel pressure and boost. but I'm seriously considering getting some analog gauges also, Just because I have been looking at them for years in the semi's I drive and old habits are hard to break.
#26
05-06-2013, 03:10 AM
More Turbo
I've got an Edge CTS with EGT probe on my 02. The Boost on mine hits 24 then goes to 14 for some reason. Once I let off of it, give it a minute or 2, then it starts reading properly again. I was wondering it there might be something in the hose blocking it. Actually, it wouldn't read beyond 14psi after I installed it for the longest time. Then, for some reason, it started reading like it's suppose to. The ICP does drop off at higher RPM's when in a hotter tune. But, a good friend of mine said that a set of Hybrid Injectors would cure that as they actually use less oil than stock sticks. He said I'd be better off spending the money on fresh sticks over an aftermarket HPOP. Of course, the hybrids would also be coupled with a 38R. Bigger sticks without more air would not make much sense.
#27
05-06-2013, 03:13 AM
More Turbo
Yeah they're not cheap, unless you compare it to melting a couple pistons, or burning up a turbo. Have you checked Riffraff? they have some good kits, but they're not cheap, Though they are about the best price you'll find.
#28
05-06-2013, 06:52 AM
I bought Stinky (2000 F250 7.3L 4X4) in 2010, blew up and replaced the transmission in 2011, and bought my DP Tuner F6 soon after. Having a case of Uber-**** Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, I got real picky with how my tunes behaved. I noticed my acceleration had a “shelf” where I'd get a jumbo jump in juice with the shift to Over-Drive. One year ago this month (April 2012), I dove in with a wrench for the first time (with a lot of help from woodnthings and other members) at a tech day... installing a T500, FRx, and doing a fuel bowl rebuild. That's when I started an AutoEnginuity rampage of modify/repair and monitor results.
The work never stopped, nor did the Buck$Zooka blasts... through all of 2012. Along the way, I learned a lot about our beloved 7.3L and the Superduty. I survived the Mayan Calendar near-death experience and popped up for air in 2013 (with a still-sick vehicle) and changed many things, including tuners. Don't read too much into that... I changed my underwear and they still work. With all the things I learned by swapping parts around like I was trying to trick Stinky in a costly shell and pea game, I feel I can now share some sage with fellow 7.3L 'Strokers.
Prerequisites for the best possible results with tuning the 7.3L:
1. The vehicle needs to be 100%: I'm not kidding. Imagine having the flu and you've been managing to walk around. Now somebody tells you to run the mile with the flu and you'll respond by falling flat, or extending a full range of Italian sign language to the one who asked you to run. Exhaust and boost leaks are a huge problem with our age of vehicle. You'll want to take steps to find and fix these. A good working turbo is important because tuning means more fuel and you need plenty of air to make good use of it. You also need that air to get out, so make sure your exhaust doesn't have a bad case of constipation.
Air in fuel will make noise and try to lower ICP, but the conservative stock tune does a good job of compensating. A tuned vehicle will try to take the injectors to the limit and an air-in-fuel situation will make you chase phantom problems with ICP. You also need to make sure your fuel pressure is where it should be and there are many components that can suck the sauce source. I was ghostbusting for far too long because of fuel issues alone.
A weak HPOP causes issues, but you won't know how much punch your HPOP has until you pop it in the mouth with a hotter tune. You can't be sure of what your HPOP is doing if you don't know if your Injector Control Pressure sensor is honest and your Injector Pressure Regulator is responsive. The Exhaust Back Pressure sensor needs to be accurate... remember, you're taking the whole vehicle to the limit and this tells the PCM how much load you have on the engine.
Getting your vehicle to 100% improves fuel economy, power, reliability, noise level, and your overall outlook on the vehicle. I was amazed at how much spunk Stinky has in stock mode with everything working right. I can hear you already: “But Tugly, how do I know if the vehicle is 100%?”
2. Gauges: Still not kidding here. You're not going to convince anybody to let you stay home with the flu until they take your temperature... and pray it's not taken rectally (unless you're into that sort of thing). There has been a general consensus to get the primary gauges: Exhaust Gas Temprature, Boost, and Transmission Temperature. I thought that was good for a long time, until I was hamstrung by the lack of one important sensor on the 7.3L – Fuel Pressure.
I say EGT (no existing sensor on vehicle), Fuel Pressure (again... no sensor) and an OBDII gauge of your choosing. The vehicle has many existing sensors you need (to get the vehicle to 100% and to monitor things), tuned or not. Why not use 'em? They ain't the cheap ones. Transmission Temp is in there, so is Boost... as well as Injector Control Pressure, Injector Pressure Regulator, Engine Oil Temperature, Battery Volts, Fuel Injector Pulse Width, etc.... Many of the available OBDII gauges even have critical tests built in, like a buzz test (“Are all the injectors solenoids firing strong?”), Cylinder Contribution Test (“Which injector is causing grief?”), and a code reader (“I have a problem, where do I start?”). I bought AutoEnginuity and a manual to get Stinky where he belongs, but I still have on-board gauges for when I'm not in troubleshooting mode.
3. Exhaust and intake (Optional if you have stock injectors): I can tell you my experience and others will tell you theirs. A bigger exhaust and air filter really helped my stock performance, as well as the tuned performance. BUT... it didn't shut down tuning Stinky when he was closer to stock. More air is very good, but I feel this is one corner that can be cut and saved for later... with stock injectors.
4. Get input: Start a fresh forum topic for your vehicle and your situation, asking how you can attain your tuning goals – present and future. Just want a little more pep? Maybe a PCM flash is all you need. Using the vehicle for Daily Driving and occasionally towing heavy or burning down a ricer? A simple chip might put a square peg in that square hole. Plan on getting Powerstroke Mod Syndrom (as if anybody plans this)? PHP's Hydra and DP's F6 can receive custom tunes through the internet, instead of yanking and shipping to get changes made. Infinity is a new powerful product on the market, and it may fit the needs for a tuner and your OBDII gauge. Our vehicles are getting older and acquiring “personalities”, so remember a single configuration that works on one vehicle may need a marriage councilor on your vehicle... or at least a tuning tweak or two.
5. Trust no one person's input...not the sales rep's, not your beer buddy's, not even mine! I live my life possibly thousands of miles from your location and nobody but you has to do the work, spend the money, and live with the results. Ask questions, find answers that meet your level of understanding (we're not diesel engineers), get a consensus of common sense, and plan your move. Swaggering to the keyboard with your ATM card in hand and no plan can leave you firing wildly at the vehicle with a Buck$Zooka... to clean up the mess.
Summary:
Sure, you can just slap a tuner in there to find out what needs to be done... many do it. Tuning doesn't improve your fuel economy, and tuning frequently leaves you driving in Stock mode at first. Why? Many vehicles have the flu, just walking around with the humble requests of the stock tune... so we trudge blithely on. Say you spend the money on pep, but you can't use it until you fix the weaknesses you discovered by trying it. How will you feel... after you forked over a few Franklins for a fuel fix, then run the cursed thing in Stock mode until you fix the fuel for a few more Franklins? Forked over... is how you will feel. Getting the vehicle to 100% regains more fuel economy than any other trick I've learned to date (mondo serious). With the money you save on fuel, you can reload the Buck$Zooka quicker to get the tuner, or maybe afford that better one you've been eying. You might even postpone a tuner after your vehicle is 100%... to enjoy your new-found/rediscovered performance. Seriously.
The work never stopped, nor did the Buck$Zooka blasts... through all of 2012. Along the way, I learned a lot about our beloved 7.3L and the Superduty. I survived the Mayan Calendar near-death experience and popped up for air in 2013 (with a still-sick vehicle) and changed many things, including tuners. Don't read too much into that... I changed my underwear and they still work. With all the things I learned by swapping parts around like I was trying to trick Stinky in a costly shell and pea game, I feel I can now share some sage with fellow 7.3L 'Strokers.
Prerequisites for the best possible results with tuning the 7.3L:
1. The vehicle needs to be 100%: I'm not kidding. Imagine having the flu and you've been managing to walk around. Now somebody tells you to run the mile with the flu and you'll respond by falling flat, or extending a full range of Italian sign language to the one who asked you to run. Exhaust and boost leaks are a huge problem with our age of vehicle. You'll want to take steps to find and fix these. A good working turbo is important because tuning means more fuel and you need plenty of air to make good use of it. You also need that air to get out, so make sure your exhaust doesn't have a bad case of constipation.
Air in fuel will make noise and try to lower ICP, but the conservative stock tune does a good job of compensating. A tuned vehicle will try to take the injectors to the limit and an air-in-fuel situation will make you chase phantom problems with ICP. You also need to make sure your fuel pressure is where it should be and there are many components that can suck the sauce source. I was ghostbusting for far too long because of fuel issues alone.
A weak HPOP causes issues, but you won't know how much punch your HPOP has until you pop it in the mouth with a hotter tune. You can't be sure of what your HPOP is doing if you don't know if your Injector Control Pressure sensor is honest and your Injector Pressure Regulator is responsive. The Exhaust Back Pressure sensor needs to be accurate... remember, you're taking the whole vehicle to the limit and this tells the PCM how much load you have on the engine.
Getting your vehicle to 100% improves fuel economy, power, reliability, noise level, and your overall outlook on the vehicle. I was amazed at how much spunk Stinky has in stock mode with everything working right. I can hear you already: “But Tugly, how do I know if the vehicle is 100%?”
2. Gauges: Still not kidding here. You're not going to convince anybody to let you stay home with the flu until they take your temperature... and pray it's not taken rectally (unless you're into that sort of thing). There has been a general consensus to get the primary gauges: Exhaust Gas Temprature, Boost, and Transmission Temperature. I thought that was good for a long time, until I was hamstrung by the lack of one important sensor on the 7.3L – Fuel Pressure.
I say EGT (no existing sensor on vehicle), Fuel Pressure (again... no sensor) and an OBDII gauge of your choosing. The vehicle has many existing sensors you need (to get the vehicle to 100% and to monitor things), tuned or not. Why not use 'em? They ain't the cheap ones. Transmission Temp is in there, so is Boost... as well as Injector Control Pressure, Injector Pressure Regulator, Engine Oil Temperature, Battery Volts, Fuel Injector Pulse Width, etc.... Many of the available OBDII gauges even have critical tests built in, like a buzz test (“Are all the injectors solenoids firing strong?”), Cylinder Contribution Test (“Which injector is causing grief?”), and a code reader (“I have a problem, where do I start?”). I bought AutoEnginuity and a manual to get Stinky where he belongs, but I still have on-board gauges for when I'm not in troubleshooting mode.
3. Exhaust and intake (Optional if you have stock injectors): I can tell you my experience and others will tell you theirs. A bigger exhaust and air filter really helped my stock performance, as well as the tuned performance. BUT... it didn't shut down tuning Stinky when he was closer to stock. More air is very good, but I feel this is one corner that can be cut and saved for later... with stock injectors.
4. Get input: Start a fresh forum topic for your vehicle and your situation, asking how you can attain your tuning goals – present and future. Just want a little more pep? Maybe a PCM flash is all you need. Using the vehicle for Daily Driving and occasionally towing heavy or burning down a ricer? A simple chip might put a square peg in that square hole. Plan on getting Powerstroke Mod Syndrom (as if anybody plans this)? PHP's Hydra and DP's F6 can receive custom tunes through the internet, instead of yanking and shipping to get changes made. Infinity is a new powerful product on the market, and it may fit the needs for a tuner and your OBDII gauge. Our vehicles are getting older and acquiring “personalities”, so remember a single configuration that works on one vehicle may need a marriage councilor on your vehicle... or at least a tuning tweak or two.
5. Trust no one person's input...not the sales rep's, not your beer buddy's, not even mine! I live my life possibly thousands of miles from your location and nobody but you has to do the work, spend the money, and live with the results. Ask questions, find answers that meet your level of understanding (we're not diesel engineers), get a consensus of common sense, and plan your move. Swaggering to the keyboard with your ATM card in hand and no plan can leave you firing wildly at the vehicle with a Buck$Zooka... to clean up the mess.
Summary:
Sure, you can just slap a tuner in there to find out what needs to be done... many do it. Tuning doesn't improve your fuel economy, and tuning frequently leaves you driving in Stock mode at first. Why? Many vehicles have the flu, just walking around with the humble requests of the stock tune... so we trudge blithely on. Say you spend the money on pep, but you can't use it until you fix the weaknesses you discovered by trying it. How will you feel... after you forked over a few Franklins for a fuel fix, then run the cursed thing in Stock mode until you fix the fuel for a few more Franklins? Forked over... is how you will feel. Getting the vehicle to 100% regains more fuel economy than any other trick I've learned to date (mondo serious). With the money you save on fuel, you can reload the Buck$Zooka quicker to get the tuner, or maybe afford that better one you've been eying. You might even postpone a tuner after your vehicle is 100%... to enjoy your new-found/rediscovered performance. Seriously.
I've had my E99 since 2005 and this year 2013 I'm now thinking about tuning the truck. I've spent countless days at FTE reading and installing the mods and upgrades posted to ensure longevity and efficiency in the engine, transmission and running gear. I'm proud to say that I have 266,000 miles on those assemblies and I haven't yet had an internal failure. Other than routine wear items like water pumps, alternators, belts, batteries, starters, fluids and filters. I've had no problems with my 7.3. I have an Naval aircraft maintenance background (8 years), service and maintenance was drilled into my head and at 30,000 feet you just can't pull over and call a tow truck. I now have a L99 and I'm in the process of the same maintenance program, building a solid foundation.
My opinion is if you want to tune your truck, spend some money on the maintenance and modifications that'll give you that solid foundation for that tune or chip. Thank you also to all that have contributed to this forum that have supplied the resources, time and modification/upgrade projects that help us with making these trucks better.
Jeff
#29
05-06-2013, 08:28 AM
Dual EGT so you can monitor the temps in both exhaust manifolds separately. If you have one side running cooler for instance, then you know you possibly have a bad injector.
Fuel pressure because it is not available through the OBDII and is important when diagnosing the fuel system.
Boost because if your using the OBDII to read boost your actually reading MAP and if you hit, I think, 22 psi for a certian amount of time the pcm can defuel to drop boost to where the PCM thinks it should be, and if you have a over boost code regulator, it won't be accurate.
And a OBDII gauge to monitor the hundreds of other sensors in your truck.
I bought an Infinity from DP tuner which acts as a complete engine monitor, gauges, and can be used as a programmer. They are coming out with a hub so you can hook up other sensors to monitor such as fuel pressure and boost. but I'm seriously considering getting some analog gauges also, Just because I have been looking at them for years in the semi's I drive and old habits are hard to break.
Fuel pressure because it is not available through the OBDII and is important when diagnosing the fuel system.
Boost because if your using the OBDII to read boost your actually reading MAP and if you hit, I think, 22 psi for a certian amount of time the pcm can defuel to drop boost to where the PCM thinks it should be, and if you have a over boost code regulator, it won't be accurate.
And a OBDII gauge to monitor the hundreds of other sensors in your truck.
I bought an Infinity from DP tuner which acts as a complete engine monitor, gauges, and can be used as a programmer. They are coming out with a hub so you can hook up other sensors to monitor such as fuel pressure and boost. but I'm seriously considering getting some analog gauges also, Just because I have been looking at them for years in the semi's I drive and old habits are hard to break.
1. I understand why you would want to monitor EGT's from each head. Can you, should you, use one gauge to monitor both EGT sensors? I.E., is there a dual gauge reading both EGT sensors? Or are you using two gauges, one for each sensor? And what gauge(s) are you using/would you recommend for reading EGTs? Do you install the sensors on the manifolds? Or in the up-pipes? For us van guys the up-pipes are easily accessible, smiling at you once you remove the "doghouse" (i.e., interior engine cover). And you can work on the up-pipes on the bench and not worry about having drill filings fall into the turbo, etc.
2. What gauge are you using/would you recommend for reading Fuel Pressure? And where do you recommend installing the sensor? After fuel pump or out of the fuel bowl? (Again, for us van guys, there is very little room at the fuel bowl, especially if we are thinking about doing the FrX.)
3. If I use somebody else instead of DP for tunes (haven't decided yet), should I use DashDAQ XL instead of Infinity for my OBDII gauge/data logger? Or is there a price or function difference which would cause me to buy Infinity regardless of whose tunes I run? (Jason, I am hoping you jump in here with both feet on this question.)
Thanks, in advance guys.
Last edited by Tim Hodgson; 05-06-2013 at 02:42 PM. Reason: Correcting "Jason" to "Justin"
#30
05-06-2013, 10:48 AM
WOW! Great feedback and questions! I'm not an expert, I'm just sharing what I've learned through all my tinkering.
- EGT is so crucial... even on a stock truck (it tells you when sumthin' ain't right). Ford did not put an EGT sensor on the truck, so that's on us. The ideal placement for the EGT sensor(s) is at the exit of the exhaust manifold: You get all four cylinders on that side and you get the closest reading to cylinder temperatures (the important aspect of EGTs). Besides... it's thick there and better for threading. Dual EGTs are ideal for the reasons mentioned by cjgray1974, but not everybody will be this "dedicated"... so a single will suffice for many. If I were frequently towing heavy, I'd want duals. One could install two sensors and a switch to go back and forth between the manifolds, install two complete gauges, or two sensors and a dual-needle gauge or dual-aux inputs on an OBDII gauge.
- Fuel Pressure... again crucial, whether it's stock or modified. The Hutch mod wasn't thought up because dropping the tank was an experiment... it was a result of investigating fuel pressure deficiencies. Guess what. It wasn't just Hutchinson that had the problem... it is a fuel system design issue. Going to bigger sticks screams for more fuel, and you don't want to come up short here... unless you've elected to eject your neglected injectors. Where to put the sensor? Easy: [LINK]
- Boost. This one is more of a testostometer (or a PMS "syndrometer") when things are working right, but it's beneficial when things are not. A stock truck can use the OBDII port gauge to get this number (from the MAP sensor). I have a modified truck and I installed a boost fooler, so there is no way I can use the OBDII port for boost. One other thing: I was previously pushing the proposed parameters of my stock turbo, so I installed my boost sensor on the "hot" side of the spider to let me know when I was reaching its "red line". I now have a 38R and I'm really glad I have the sensor where it is.