Injector reliability.
Super Moderator
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 29,380
Likes: 118
From: Central Coast of CA
All I know is I want and must have brand new injectors, I can't take the risk at the moment of used giving me troubles. If what you say is true Stewart then what would you recommend now, knowing I must have new? What's the biggest I can get, the most "powerful" so to speak...?
A code injectors (in this case, AC's) are still made by Alliant. Hybrids are a combination of different code injectors.
Here's info from a PDF Bill at PHP has put on the 'net.
A Code Injectors:
All Power Stroke and International T44E engines use "A Code" injectors (AA to AF) which uses a 6.0mm plunger and a 16mm intensifier piston to produce a 7.111:1 multiplication in pressure. This means that for every 1 PSI of Injection Control Pressure (ICP) from the HPOP, the injected fuel pressure will be 7.111 psi. So, on a system running 3,000 PSI of ICP, the pressure of the injected fuel will be 21,330 PSI (not taking into account base cylinder pressure).
B Code Injectors:
International DT466 and I530 engines use "B Code" injectors (BA to BN) and are relatively identical to many of the "A Code" injectors except for the "BD Code" injector which uses a 7.1mm plunger and a 17.5mm intensifier piston to produce a 6.075:1 multiplication in pressure. For "BD Code" injectors, on a system running 3,000 PSI of ICP, the pressure of the injected fuel will be 18,225 PSI (not taking into account base Flow Nozzle Size HP Range cylinder pressure). This is quite a bit less than the Power Stroke and requires about 15% higher ICP pressure to achieve the same injected fuel pressure. Also, because of the large intensifier piston, the HPOP will also need to be able to supply roughly 20% more oil volume in order to adequately fire the injector without loss of pressure.
Hybrid Injectors:
Hybrid injectors use a combination of components from both "A/B Code" and "BD Code" injectors. Utilizing the 7.1mm plunger and barrel of the "BD Code" injectors with the intensifier piston of the "A/B Code" injectors produces a 5.078:1 multiplication in pressure. On a system running 3,000 PSI of ICP, the pressure of the injected fuel will be extremely low at only 15,234 PSI (not taking into account base cylinder pressure). This is almost 30% lower than a stock Power Stroke and requires significantly higher ICP pressure to achieve the same injected fuel pressure. However, because the intensifier piston hasn't changed, the HPOP should be able to supply the oil volume necessary in order to adequately fire the injector.
The problem with Hybrid injectors is that while the injectors are generally capable of injecting more fuel, they do so at the cost of fuel injection pressure which ultimately leads to poor fuel atomization and decreased combustion efficiency. On the surface, increasing ICP 40% to get the fuel injection pressure back to normal seems like a relatively simple solution, but there is another problem. The firing oil control mechanisms in the injector (the poppet valve) has a seat pressure of usually around 3300 to 3500 PSI. Raising the
pressure of the high pressure oil system can result in the poppet valve floating and causing the injector to not fire properly. For reasons outside the scope of this document, increasing the seat pressure is not a feasible solution and can ultimately will cause the injector to not fire at all.
Because of the issues with injection pressure when running hybrid injectors, we do not recommend these injectors for most "daily driver" street applications, opting instead to go with one of the more popular "A Code" or "B Code" single shot injectors.
All Power Stroke and International T44E engines use "A Code" injectors (AA to AF) which uses a 6.0mm plunger and a 16mm intensifier piston to produce a 7.111:1 multiplication in pressure. This means that for every 1 PSI of Injection Control Pressure (ICP) from the HPOP, the injected fuel pressure will be 7.111 psi. So, on a system running 3,000 PSI of ICP, the pressure of the injected fuel will be 21,330 PSI (not taking into account base cylinder pressure).
B Code Injectors:
International DT466 and I530 engines use "B Code" injectors (BA to BN) and are relatively identical to many of the "A Code" injectors except for the "BD Code" injector which uses a 7.1mm plunger and a 17.5mm intensifier piston to produce a 6.075:1 multiplication in pressure. For "BD Code" injectors, on a system running 3,000 PSI of ICP, the pressure of the injected fuel will be 18,225 PSI (not taking into account base Flow Nozzle Size HP Range cylinder pressure). This is quite a bit less than the Power Stroke and requires about 15% higher ICP pressure to achieve the same injected fuel pressure. Also, because of the large intensifier piston, the HPOP will also need to be able to supply roughly 20% more oil volume in order to adequately fire the injector without loss of pressure.
Hybrid Injectors:
Hybrid injectors use a combination of components from both "A/B Code" and "BD Code" injectors. Utilizing the 7.1mm plunger and barrel of the "BD Code" injectors with the intensifier piston of the "A/B Code" injectors produces a 5.078:1 multiplication in pressure. On a system running 3,000 PSI of ICP, the pressure of the injected fuel will be extremely low at only 15,234 PSI (not taking into account base cylinder pressure). This is almost 30% lower than a stock Power Stroke and requires significantly higher ICP pressure to achieve the same injected fuel pressure. However, because the intensifier piston hasn't changed, the HPOP should be able to supply the oil volume necessary in order to adequately fire the injector.
The problem with Hybrid injectors is that while the injectors are generally capable of injecting more fuel, they do so at the cost of fuel injection pressure which ultimately leads to poor fuel atomization and decreased combustion efficiency. On the surface, increasing ICP 40% to get the fuel injection pressure back to normal seems like a relatively simple solution, but there is another problem. The firing oil control mechanisms in the injector (the poppet valve) has a seat pressure of usually around 3300 to 3500 PSI. Raising the
pressure of the high pressure oil system can result in the poppet valve floating and causing the injector to not fire properly. For reasons outside the scope of this document, increasing the seat pressure is not a feasible solution and can ultimately will cause the injector to not fire at all.
Because of the issues with injection pressure when running hybrid injectors, we do not recommend these injectors for most "daily driver" street applications, opting instead to go with one of the more popular "A Code" or "B Code" single shot injectors.
Stewart
Super Moderator
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 29,380
Likes: 118
From: Central Coast of CA
In my opinion, if you want something with more power, but the best reliability for a daily driver plus towing power, get the AC's with 100% nozzles. That's just my opinion, for what its worth.
You won't win any races against the newer trucks, but you will be happy, IMHO.
Also with AC's, your stock HPOP will be more than adequate, your truck will idle nicely, you shouldn't have any EGT issues, even when towing, and they are immensely easy to tune for by any tuner of your choice.
Stewart
You won't win any races against the newer trucks, but you will be happy, IMHO.
Also with AC's, your stock HPOP will be more than adequate, your truck will idle nicely, you shouldn't have any EGT issues, even when towing, and they are immensely easy to tune for by any tuner of your choice.
Stewart
Posting Guru
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,392
Likes: 0
From: NW Arkansas
I see a huge waste of money on buying new injectors. Get some remans.. save the money for other stuff.
I have yet to find someone that went thru a reputable builder and had issues w/ reman's.
DI, Swamps, Cass.. they all have good quality control. If something isn't right they scrap the injector and move on to the next one.
If you are planning on using DI for your sticks you might wanna get in touch with Jap. he's always very helpful on PSA.
I have yet to find someone that went thru a reputable builder and had issues w/ reman's.
DI, Swamps, Cass.. they all have good quality control. If something isn't right they scrap the injector and move on to the next one.
If you are planning on using DI for your sticks you might wanna get in touch with Jap. he's always very helpful on PSA.
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,025
Likes: 0
From: ellensburg
Great discussion!! If someone chooses to go with something bigger than 160/100's only to have them detuned for what they currently have... in my case I have a 38R, 4" exhaust, DP Tuner and HD4R100. What would I need in addition to that in order to run bigger injectors to their full potential? What would be the injector size limit if I didn't do any further mods other than a T500?
I just had time to pop in on this right on cue. In deference to my esteemed colleague, 2000ca250, I need to add a caveat to what he says. Stock is a split-shot. AC is a single shot. If you take these two injectors and give them precisely the same PW, the AC will give more fuel and do it earlier (higher HP, lower EGTs).
- ACs "off the shelf" can be replaced from the shelf at an IH dealer if you ever need one injector... but the difference in wear will leave the engine unbalanced. I know what a fan you are of stock configurations, so this is the one to feed that urge. The AC stick is engineered for the HO T444E, the fraternal twin of the Powerstroke 7.3L. Somebody has already done their homework and it is a truely "safe" power bump... but you still have to change the tuning.
- AC 160/100 is the sweet spot for reaching for the permagrin while hangin' on for dear life to the DD reliability. That's why I chose them. By going new, this will help many miles down the road because custom nozzles put you in the "all or none" practice at replacement time. Replacing one or two sticks here and there just introduces imbalance in the engine... thereby increasing wear. And yes, they can be dialed way back to stock (or less)... but the idle will not be quite as quiet as stock. Not too loud, just different-sounding (like an OBS truck)
Thanks Tugly but I don't want ricers to think I'm mean nor do I want to waist my time embarrassing school children. I want to blow the big 6.7 that shamed me at a light the other day (while I was in 140), be able to do it with the bed fully loaded, back to the good ole days of the 7.3. And I still want to be able to do it with the same injectors 100k miles down the road.
I like the fact that the bigger nozzles can lower egt's, that's a technical tidbit of information I was as well unaware of, but the question now is what's the first number stand for in these injector numbers, the 160 or the 238 or 250..?? I know the second number is in direct relation of how much fuel the nozzle can flow compared to the stock nozzle, not certain the first number.
Please spare the noob. Thanks.
I like the fact that the bigger nozzles can lower egt's, that's a technical tidbit of information I was as well unaware of, but the question now is what's the first number stand for in these injector numbers, the 160 or the 238 or 250..?? I know the second number is in direct relation of how much fuel the nozzle can flow compared to the stock nozzle, not certain the first number.
Please spare the noob. Thanks.
All I know is I want and must have brand new injectors, I can't take the risk at the moment of used giving me troubles. If what you say is true Stewart then what would you recommend now, knowing I must have new? What's the biggest I can get, the most "powerful" so to speak...?
I see a huge waste of money on buying new injectors. Get some remans.. save the money for other stuff.
I have yet to find someone that went thru a reputable builder and had issues w/ reman's.
DI, Swamps, Cass.. they all have good quality control. If something isn't right they scrap the injector and move on to the next one.
If you are planning on using DI for your sticks you might wanna get in touch with Jap. he's always very helpful on PSA.
I have yet to find someone that went thru a reputable builder and had issues w/ reman's.
DI, Swamps, Cass.. they all have good quality control. If something isn't right they scrap the injector and move on to the next one.
If you are planning on using DI for your sticks you might wanna get in touch with Jap. he's always very helpful on PSA.
I agree with this though. I honestly think the issue is more with nozzle size than with new vs reman. I have a reman set of 250/200's that run fine. They just take some work tuning wise to dial them in. Bigger you go, the more finnicky stuff can be. I also stress this, if you are going to go higher HP on your truck, and its older, buy a set of valve springs, and not just shimmed comp 910. Buy a set of the comp beehives. Biggest difference with a single mod I have ever noticed.
As far as reliability and power goes, I have not had any reliability issues due to my injectors or engine with my set of 250/200's. I routinely drive from WA to CA, and have no problem leaving WA at 3AM and driving straight through to CA at the spur of the moment. Save your money and get remans, then take that money and use it to buy a set of valve springs, and some high quality oil to take care of your injectors. Oh and a torque wrench
Then sit back and just drive the fugger. Biggest thing is all injectors take a little bit of time to seat. If you go big, expect a bit of smoke on start up if its cold. If you go 100% nozzle, be willing to take some time getting them dialed in. I know some tuners are starting to push people away from 100% nozzles because of the variances between sets. Personally, I will recommend 200% nozzles to anyone that wants to go bigger than stock nozzles. They can tow, and can make as much power as anyone would want with a daily driver. They have good manners, and most tuners can nail them down in 1 or 2 revisions, and their off the shelf tunes for them do more than just getting you in the ball park.
My biggest recommendation though is that if you are going to put bigger injectors in your truck, dont expect it to sound the same. It will sound different. Do your homework, talk to people that have done the mods you are looking at, talk to your planned tuner, talk to your injector builder, learn about how everything works.
No matter what, you will LOVE fresh injectors.
Super Moderator
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 29,380
Likes: 118
From: Central Coast of CA
Stewart
Posting Guru
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,392
Likes: 0
From: NW Arkansas
So you had junk from Cass.. what happened in the end? Did cass sort you thru? I'm sorry to hear you got unlucky.
To be totally honest I'd never buy new. It's a waste IMHO, but I guess there is always gotta be one unlucky guy. I'm sorry it was you..
But then again.. I have never worried about crossing creeks either
To be totally honest I'd never buy new. It's a waste IMHO, but I guess there is always gotta be one unlucky guy. I'm sorry it was you..
But then again.. I have never worried about crossing creeks either
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,025
Likes: 0
From: ellensburg
Oh and Tugly's luck....
Like I said, I have remans that I have had in for a year and havent had a single hiccup. They also are hybrids and have 200% nozzles. Oh and on top of that, I didnt do an oil change after installing them and not sucking oil out of the cylinders for another 3 months and 3000 plus miles...maybe I just have the balance of Tugly's luck...
FTE Stories
Ford Trucks for Ford Truck Enthusiasts
10 Best Ford Truck Engines We Miss the Most!
Joe Kucinski
2026 Shelby F-150 Off-Road: Better Than a Raptor R?
Brett Foote
2027 Super Duty Carhartt Package First Look: 12 Things You NEED to Know!
Michael S. Palmer
10 Most Surprising 2026 Ford Truck Features!
Joe Kucinski
Top 10 Ford Trucks Coming to Mecum Indy 2026
Brett Foote
5 Best / 5 Worst Ford Truck Wheels of All Time
Joe Kucinski
Ford Super Duty: 5 Things Owners LOVE, 5 Things They LOATHE!
Joe Kucinski
Every 2026 Ford Truck Engine RANKED from WORST to FIRST!
Michael S. Palmer
The Best F-150 Deal of Every Trim Level (XL through Raptor)
Joe Kucinski
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 18,849
Likes: 179
From: Puget Sound
So you had junk from Cass.. what happened in the end? Did cass sort you thru? I'm sorry to hear you got unlucky.
To be totally honest I'd never buy new. It's a waste IMHO, but I guess there is always gotta be one unlucky guy. I'm sorry it was you..
But then again.. I have never worried about crossing creeks either
To be totally honest I'd never buy new. It's a waste IMHO, but I guess there is always gotta be one unlucky guy. I'm sorry it was you..
But then again.. I have never worried about crossing creeks either
Posting Guru
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,392
Likes: 0
From: NW Arkansas
I've met him a few times at beans and he is just a wicked nice guy.
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 18,849
Likes: 179
From: Puget Sound
Naaww... Stinky's in bed with a bad case of cupleakitus, but he's in recovery from surgery. I'm filling the cooling system and doing the wet pressure test on my shiny new cups as soon as I can get to the garage... to make sure he didn't reject the cup transplant like he did the sticks.
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,156
Likes: 0
Guys, I can not stress enough how thankful I am for your help with this. I'm on my phone right now so I'll have to get back and inquire after work tomorrow or the next day but I wantedyou all to know how grateful I am. Thank you all.
Posting Guru
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,392
Likes: 0
From: NW Arkansas
Glad to help
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,156
Likes: 0
Oh man, where to start. Oh, I know, I should start with a PM to Curtis and Cody to chime in and post, LOL!
A code injectors (in this case, AC's) are still made by Alliant. Hybrids are a combination of different code injectors.
Here's info from a PDF Bill at PHP has put on the 'net.
Clear as mud now, aint it?
Stewart
A code injectors (in this case, AC's) are still made by Alliant. Hybrids are a combination of different code injectors.
Here's info from a PDF Bill at PHP has put on the 'net.
Clear as mud now, aint it?
Stewart
I will study up some more and think long and hard about this. Driving my truck the past few days (nearing 400 miles within those days) I've realized just how faithful and reliable she is. I would hate to mess that up in the chase for more power. That is my biggest concern. I can not afford to not work and that is her first and main priority, work.
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,156
Likes: 0
Actually if you go with Hybrids, they use less oil per shot than single shots, so a T500 isnt necessarily a must have with them. As far as how it would push your truck, 238's and a 38R is a very common combination. With a set of hybrids and a 38R you could be looking at a reliable 450HP.
This is true, however a stock nozzle still flows x over y time. You will inject the fuel more precisely, but not necessarily faster. Will you see an increase? Yes. Will you be able to use the full amount of fuel without running 5ms of PW? No. I will have to disagree with 160/100 being a sweet spot. Personally I think smaller hybrids, or sureflows, are the sweet spot. a 80 or a 200% nozzle is all I will recommend after what you went through Rich. I dont think it has anything to do with reman vs new, it has to do with the nozzle itself. Anyone reading this can PM me if they want me to go into more depth with regards to injector builders, mods to them, or what I would recommend for a certain set up.
I echo the sentiment that unless you do a full build (studs, springs, hpop, turbo - non drop in - and potentially billet rods, you will not beat a 6.7. You will not keep up with one without moving to a larger set of hybrids and a solidly built transmission.
Brand new does not exist unless you go with 160/stock. Everything else must be taken apart and modded or a nozzle installed. I wouldnt worry about remans as much as I would worry about where you buy them. PM me for more info.
ugh...PSA? dont get me started lol.
I agree with this though. I honestly think the issue is more with nozzle size than with new vs reman. I have a reman set of 250/200's that run fine. They just take some work tuning wise to dial them in. Bigger you go, the more finnicky stuff can be. I also stress this, if you are going to go higher HP on your truck, and its older, buy a set of valve springs, and not just shimmed comp 910. Buy a set of the comp beehives. Biggest difference with a single mod I have ever noticed.
As far as reliability and power goes, I have not had any reliability issues due to my injectors or engine with my set of 250/200's. I routinely drive from WA to CA, and have no problem leaving WA at 3AM and driving straight through to CA at the spur of the moment. Save your money and get remans, then take that money and use it to buy a set of valve springs, and some high quality oil to take care of your injectors. Oh and a torque wrench
Then sit back and just drive the fugger. Biggest thing is all injectors take a little bit of time to seat. If you go big, expect a bit of smoke on start up if its cold. If you go 100% nozzle, be willing to take some time getting them dialed in. I know some tuners are starting to push people away from 100% nozzles because of the variances between sets. Personally, I will recommend 200% nozzles to anyone that wants to go bigger than stock nozzles. They can tow, and can make as much power as anyone would want with a daily driver. They have good manners, and most tuners can nail them down in 1 or 2 revisions, and their off the shelf tunes for them do more than just getting you in the ball park.
My biggest recommendation though is that if you are going to put bigger injectors in your truck, dont expect it to sound the same. It will sound different. Do your homework, talk to people that have done the mods you are looking at, talk to your planned tuner, talk to your injector builder, learn about how everything works.
No matter what, you will LOVE fresh injectors.
This is true, however a stock nozzle still flows x over y time. You will inject the fuel more precisely, but not necessarily faster. Will you see an increase? Yes. Will you be able to use the full amount of fuel without running 5ms of PW? No. I will have to disagree with 160/100 being a sweet spot. Personally I think smaller hybrids, or sureflows, are the sweet spot. a 80 or a 200% nozzle is all I will recommend after what you went through Rich. I dont think it has anything to do with reman vs new, it has to do with the nozzle itself. Anyone reading this can PM me if they want me to go into more depth with regards to injector builders, mods to them, or what I would recommend for a certain set up.
I echo the sentiment that unless you do a full build (studs, springs, hpop, turbo - non drop in - and potentially billet rods, you will not beat a 6.7. You will not keep up with one without moving to a larger set of hybrids and a solidly built transmission.
Brand new does not exist unless you go with 160/stock. Everything else must be taken apart and modded or a nozzle installed. I wouldnt worry about remans as much as I would worry about where you buy them. PM me for more info.
ugh...PSA? dont get me started lol.
I agree with this though. I honestly think the issue is more with nozzle size than with new vs reman. I have a reman set of 250/200's that run fine. They just take some work tuning wise to dial them in. Bigger you go, the more finnicky stuff can be. I also stress this, if you are going to go higher HP on your truck, and its older, buy a set of valve springs, and not just shimmed comp 910. Buy a set of the comp beehives. Biggest difference with a single mod I have ever noticed.
As far as reliability and power goes, I have not had any reliability issues due to my injectors or engine with my set of 250/200's. I routinely drive from WA to CA, and have no problem leaving WA at 3AM and driving straight through to CA at the spur of the moment. Save your money and get remans, then take that money and use it to buy a set of valve springs, and some high quality oil to take care of your injectors. Oh and a torque wrench
Then sit back and just drive the fugger. Biggest thing is all injectors take a little bit of time to seat. If you go big, expect a bit of smoke on start up if its cold. If you go 100% nozzle, be willing to take some time getting them dialed in. I know some tuners are starting to push people away from 100% nozzles because of the variances between sets. Personally, I will recommend 200% nozzles to anyone that wants to go bigger than stock nozzles. They can tow, and can make as much power as anyone would want with a daily driver. They have good manners, and most tuners can nail them down in 1 or 2 revisions, and their off the shelf tunes for them do more than just getting you in the ball park.
My biggest recommendation though is that if you are going to put bigger injectors in your truck, dont expect it to sound the same. It will sound different. Do your homework, talk to people that have done the mods you are looking at, talk to your planned tuner, talk to your injector builder, learn about how everything works.
No matter what, you will LOVE fresh injectors.
Thanks man. You can expect a pm from me soon enough. I plan on having "new" injectors within one month's time. I'm a slow study.
