My 351 Clevo has only done 5000 km since complete rebuild and No 4 exhaust lifter is hollowed out at the base like a soup bowl. It has worn the lobe on the cam so looks like I will have to replace all of it. These parts were all new from Comp Cams and rebuild followed strictly to instructions see foot note . Has any one had this problem and is comp cams a reliable part now that I have to spend another fortune on my motor I don't really want this to happen again.

 

I heard similiar things AFTER I bought my comps cam, but I had sealed power lifters. Apparently Comp cam cores are from china now(?, and not as good as they were but some-one else may be able to confirm.

 

Hi Wallingnuma,

For what it's worth. I fitted a comp cams cam (part number 32-241-4) and lifters (832-16) in February, did 7,200kms, and removed the cam and lifters last weekend. The lobes and lifters were perfect.

At the time I checked the boxes they came in to see where they were made. No mention at all !!
I phoned Comp Cams to find out, and the tech guy told me that there are 3 USA cam makers that make the cams and where not from China.
He sounded pretty pissed with me for suggesting they might be from
China !!

Apart from possible quality issues, a few things come to mind with regard the worn lifter/lobe.

Since the break in, was oil with an API of SG used ?
Oil with an API of SM or SN 'might' cause problems with the lower zinc and phosphorous levels than SG, although I believe this to be only at higher rpms.

Was the lifter preload set as per the instuctions ?
I notice some of their cams are zero lash at TDC plus 1/2 turn, and others are zero lash at TDC plus 1 turn.

Were the valve spring pressures and heights as per the recommendations ?

I'm not saying that you're at fault, but if you are, great ! you have the answer.

If it's a quality issue, not great ! You're not exactly down the road from Comp Cams !

I had a lifter failure (2mms worn off) and corresponding lobe failure, and it was my fault ! Damn!
I didn't fully understand how to set valve lash (it was my first time), and the heads I fitted had mush stronger springs/pressures than the cam I had in at the time (which had done 20,000kms already).

 

Did you add a cam break in oil ? Did you change the oil after the first 20 minutes and refill with a oil that is compatible for a flat tappet cam ? You can no longer use " off the shelve " oils with flat cams, they have removes everything the cams need to last.
Was the lifter preload set when the motor was built ? Everything in the valve train checked for any possible binding anywhere ?

 

I used valvoline brake in oil which is straight 30 grade replaced it after I did the 20 miniutes at 2000 rpm. I replaced it with more brake in oil and then changed that after about 200 km. I replaced that oil with more brake in oil for about 300 km and then used penrite 20w-50 mineral oil API SM/CF, ACEA A3/B3 GM 6094M, VW 502.00/505.00 all bloody goobeldy gok to me. All of the other lifters look brand new it's only this one lifter. I will be taking the cam out soon very busy at work so time is an issue.
I should have been more patient and ordered the proper comp cam stuff from the states its a bit difficult down here to get that specialised stuff. I did order the cam from the states but didn't relise I needed their oil as well just thought it as a marketing thing. Even the brake in oil I had to order and the people behind the counter didn't know what I was talking about.
I adjusted the rockers 1 full turn after zero lash. They are roller rockers with the adjustment on the push rod. The heads were suposed to have been recoditioned and they have single valve springs. So I only asume the pressures and hieghts were correct.
I am now going to put 4v closed chamber heads on with double springs so do you guys have any sugestions on the type of valve train I should go for seeing as I have to replace everything I may as well go for it.

 

The use of the straight weight 30 oil for the break in is correct, but did you use an additive ? Look up Comp Cams part number 159.

Did you apply assembly lube on to the cam lobes and lifters ?

Revving at 2,000rpms for 20 minutes sounds wrong. Check and see if it should have been 2,000rpms for 30 minutes with regular revving to 2,500rpms as this gives better, much needed, oil splash onto the cam/lifters.

When it comes to engine components, assume nothing ! You need to match the valve spring pressures and heights to the cam.

What is the part number of your cam ?

20w50 mineral oil is fine for after the break in, but I wouldn't use an API of SM. Basically the flat tappet cams like +/-1200ppm of zinc and 1000ppm of phosphorous.
SM can have only 600ppm of zinc.
Zinc is required as a barrier to rapid wear at the high pressure points, namely the tappet base and cam lobe.
LOL at being ''goobeldy gok''. Damn right!

The 4v heads you mention, are they the USA 4v heads with huge valves, or the Australian 4v heads with 2v valves ?

Double springs are fine IF THEY MATCH THE CAM SPECS.

Do you want an RPM engine or a Torque engine ?
4v USA heads are for RPM whereas 4v heads with 2v valves are for Torque, but I'm just quoting what I've read !

Now for the bad news.

The crap that came off the cam lobe and lifter has gone into your engine.

Be prepared to find damage. E.G. A scrathed bore, scratched cam bearings.

The good news is that you can design (blue print) your new engine.

If your current heads are open chamber, then you'll get, and feel, an extra 12% increase (at least) in both torque and HP with the closed chamber heads.

Some more good news !

Once you've chosen your new cam (for HP or for Torque, or both), and you've matched it to the valve springs etc, and you've increased your compression (assuming the closed chamber heads are replacing open chamber heads), you'll have a potent engine with improved fuel economy.

Post the cam part number and we can take it from there.

Cheerz4now,
Nick

 

Yer G'Day Nick sorry I haven't been on computer for a while the part No for cam is FC 292H-10 32-234-4. You were right about braking in cam for 30 min but I only did it for 20 cause the missus went right off about upsetting the nieghbours. I might not have the right valve springs either as the heads I bought (2v open chamber) were reconditioned but no idea what spring tensions were. I have delved further into the litrature Comp Cams sent me and I have found I required 924-16 springs what ever that meens. I have no doubt my failure to follow comp cams instructions have led to my demise once again. I am good at that as you see my foot note is tounge in cheek it's me all over. Any how I am gunna pull the cam out over the weekend and check it out. It's just odd though only one lifter has **** itself all the others are fine. I will have a look at the other lobes when I get the cam out and report back to you next week. Have a good one

 

G'day Wallingnuma,

I actually thought that your foot note was serious !

Now I know what you mean, I like the dry humour (sarcasm at yourself!)

Ok, if you ran the motor at 2,000 for 20 minutes, WITHOUT revving it to 2,500rpm periodically (to create oil splash), then I'd say that that was probably the cause of the cam demise.

If you did in fact alternate the rpms, then f$$k, 10 minutes must mean life or death of a cam !

Your cam (R.I.P.) takes dual springs (924-16), and chances are that your 2v heads have only single springs, so I doubt that the spring pressures were the problem.

When you take the valve covers off, you'll see rows of valve springs, which means nothing, right?
Well, as you see them, fully installed that is, they are at their seat (installed) height. 924-16 must sit at 1.9'' with a spring pressure of 112.

112 what ? I can't remember !! lbs maybe ?

972-16 springs, for example, sit at 1.8'' with a pressure of 124.

When the 924-16 springs are open (valve open) the pressure jumps to 355 @ 1.2'' compared to 293 @ 1.25 (say 310 @ 1.2) on the 972-16.

355 is a lot more than 310 !

The dual springs are required for your 'high revving' cam.

Weaker springs could in fact allow 'valve float' at higher rpm.

Hope that makes sense !!

So it's imperative to ensure that the lifters, springs, retainers etc 'match' the cam.

When you remove the other 15 lifters, you'll probably find that they all look ok !

Don't forget that there's a very good chance that your engine needs to be stripped due to the lobe and lifter debris.

I cried for weeks when this happened to me !

Good news is that you can 'measure' your engine and actually match all the parts required for your driving style. (High rpm, cruising, street racing.)

If I ever work out how to load a picture, I will !

That's enough of my for now.

On a different subject, and seeing as you're based in Oz, I'd like to ask you something as I'm about to order some RHD ties rods, and a drag link.

I was quoted Oz $735 by F Trucks, $514 by Eagle Auto and $412 by All American driveline. Classic pickup will quote me tomorrow.

LOL at F Trucks ! Enough said.
Have you heard of, or used, the other suppliers ?
I'll phone them tomorrow to find out why there's such price discrepancies.

You have a good one too.

Laterz,
Nick

 

geez, I think you are pretty unlucky really. Cam manufacturers seem to give themselve a big safety net for the break in. I dont run the galaxie much so I have barely got to 1000k since the rebuild so I could be close. I actually believe that it will fail from all the intermittent starts as I may go several weeks between runs so most of the oil will have buggered off and I can understand a premature fail there.
I didnt even do the proper break in either. No light springs, 2nd hand Boss springs actually.
Ran the engine up and down in the driveway looking for leaks trying to keep good revs on but definitely changing revs, then a relatively sedate 5 min drive out to a nice big secluded straight for the start of the engines break in which ended in a rooted head gasket (but thats another story). That meant I gave it an oil change with some more ZDDP and it is due a change now.
I did use an oil recommended by Castrol Australia, and I also used some ZDDP additive that came in the kit from T Meyer along with completely slathering the cam with the supplied assembly lube (although a friend who rebuilt engines in a previous life suggested that it doesnt last that long once running) so maybe that is my saving grace?
I do give the old girl a hiding now and then and had the speedo touching 120 (MPH) the other day which was a handful I can assure you, but again I havent got to 5000k's yet so fingers crossed. I am due to start running Castrol edge 20-50 (with Titanium-is that just another reason to make it 10 bucks dearer than before?)

 

Guys be sure when you use aftermarket vavle springsyou also use aftermarket spring retainers. The factory has the rotator retainers and exh springs have a shorter installed height on the springs. Aftermarket ratainers with both intake and exh the same.

 

G'Day All
Looks like I have started a good discussion. Some great info coming in.
Well I have taken out the cam and as predicted the lobe is stuffed probably worn half way down starting to wonder how the piston pushed the exhaust gas out of the cylinder with a half opened,closed valve. I am the same neek about the pics I will take a photo tomorrow and try to upload it or download it whatever for you all to see. Some interesting ware paterns on cam which probably explains the light springs. I have engaged the local mechanic who is from the old school and a mad speedway freak so knows a bit about old clangers and performance you can extract from them. He reckons the cam breakin ritual is a load of bollocks just get in and take it for a hammering so that you bed in the rings seemed the most important to him. My mate has just rebuilt the motor in his GTHO fALCON YES A REAL GTHO PHASE 3 WORTH A HOUSE ON THE BEACH FRONT. He has just nursed it to scared to give it to her. Probly only done up to 3000 rpm for 3 seconds. He still has the single springs in cause his engine builder in Perth told him not to put the dual springs in until he has done 500km he is up to 1500km now.
Anyhow back to the subject. I am just wondering if I may have a problem with the oil servicing the lifter seeing it's at the end of the gallery last in line so to speak. Maybe their is debris their to begin with that stuffed the lifter in the first place. I need to find an answer so dismantling the engine will be on the cards thats not a problem. I will find it and let you all know.
Interesting stuff about the springs Neek I will take note of what you are saying cause the 4v heads I am putting on are reconditioned with valves and dual springs installed already but I have no idea what they are. Are you saying I should replace the whole valve train from cam to the valve springs and their retainers A whole package.
Regarding the suppliers you mentioned I can't help you on those as I haven't dealt with any of them. Or heard of them for that matter. I am not sure what specifically you are after but there is no shortage of ford f series parts pre 1980 down here stuff like tie rods, springs, diffs all that hard stuff just laying around. I have a friend who has about ten efies looking for a loving home. I am going there thursday to pick up a 31 spline 9" diff for my XA Hardtop. I'll pick his brains for ya.
Happy motoring and remember pedal to the metal

 

G'Day Walli,

Yup, I'm too lazy to type your full name. LOL

''I have engaged the local mechanic who is from the old school and a mad speedway freak so knows a bit about old clangers and performance you can extract from them. He reckons the cam breakin ritual is a load of bollocks''.

WTF !!?? Is that a joke ? Are you sure he said that ? Hmm, maybe he's right and Comp cams, Crane cams, Crower Cams, Lunati cams, Edelbrock, etc, etc, are all wrong !? Sh$t ! That makes me wrong too !

Ummm, that old school he's from. Is it an old racing mechanics school, or an old school for the mentally challenged ?

I think walk away from him, NOW !

Then we can get back to the 'good discussion' ! LOL

''just get in and take it for a hammering so that you bed in the rings seemed the most important to him''.

I've read two schools of thought on that one. Personally, I follow the manufacturers' instructions, whether it's cam or piston rings.
I reckon out of everyone, the manufacturers should know best !!

You get two types of engine builder with two types of comment.
For example, for a street engine, the street engine builder will suggest hydraulic lifters whereas the race engine builder will suggest solid lifters !
I'm sayin' that just for illustration.

''his engine builder in Perth told him not to put the dual springs in until he has done 500km''.
I would listen to that engine builder !!

I think 80broncoman,crsmiffy and mark a. will agree so far (at least I hope so) !!!

You said that your engine had a complete rebuild 5,000kms ago, so I assumed that you had new lifters to match the cam, new springs, new rings etc.etc.
I've now decided not to assume !

I doubt oiling caused the problem, but that said (coz it's an assumption!), was the block cleaned ''properly'' ?!!

Are the gallery front and rear end plugs brand new ?!!(attention to detail by the builder. an example))

Who built your engine ?
Did they match the springs to the cam ?
Did they tell you how to run it in properly ?
etc, etc.

Has your motor got a 2 piece or 1 piece rear crank seal ?
If you say 2 piece, then you'll like my reply to you!!

Ok, take your engine out !!
There will be debris from the cam lobe floating around in there !
If you're lucky, the cam journals, main bearings, big end bearings, bores etc will not have been damaged (scored) by the debris.

You've already taken out your cam, timing cover, etc. So you're half way there already !
In fact, because you're half way there, I'd say strip, blueprint, and build your own engine !!

What did you mean by ''Some interesting wear patterns on cam which probably explains the light springs'' ?

With regard to the valve train, your cam specs will specify what you need !!
Double springs MIGHT be ok, if they satisfy the cam specs, but I doubt it !

Yes, getting new springs, seals, retainers etc seems like ''F$$k that's expensive'', but at least you'll have brand new, 100% correct parts, which will last for how loooooooooooooong ?

Before I forget, do the 'new' heads have hardened valve seats (and guides) ? If not, have them fitted!! (Not by that local guy though !! LOL) Only unleaded petrol will be around in 10 years from now.

On a serious note, if you are time constrained or do not have the confidence to build your own engine, then learn what is needed so that you can check the builder's work throughout assembly!

Thank you for the comments about the Oz suppliers, much appreciated. I now have 2 quotes that are reasonable (not taking the **** like F Trucks), and I'm going to phone them both tomorrow. I'll pick one of them. My gut feel about them is a good one. I'll place an order tomorrow too.

Your tomorrow is my today, but sometimes your yesterday is my tomorrow !! LOL. The 9 hours time difference slaps me now and then.

I just found this smiley !
Laterz,
Nick

 

Check this site out, I am actually not in favour of the nursey-softly softly break in method. It backs up a lot of what I've seen, done and heard over the years. Not ***** to the wall stuff but a controlled aggressive break in.
A lot of new stuff has ECU and data logging so if you try this your warranty will be gone when they check it at service so you are screwed there, otherwise I reckon it's the go.
The guy who helped me who rebuit engines back in the day also looked at me funny when i mentioned breaking in the cam. Never used to do it at all. He is a pretty knowledgeable guy and taught me how to rebuild clark trannys and diffs in UG coal mining gear. Touch wood I never had a failure from my work, so my trust factor of his methods pretty high.
I think that it comes down to your oil and whats in it-the lack of ZDDP, sulphur etc in modern oils gives flat tappet cams grief more than the day they were built.

Break In Secrets--How To Break In New Motorcycle and Car Engines For More Power

 

Check it out
I am having trouble with the other pics but you get the idea. the lobe infront of the lifter is almost flat this took about 700km from the start of any lifter noise. You might question why it took so long it's because I was on my way to a car show 400km from my home and about 100 km into the trip it started just ever so quietly but by the time I got to the show it was clacking loudly. On a weekend no shops open and no towns in between. It mean't a noisy ride home. Any how this is it.
Just to fill you in Neek my name is Aboriginal I was brought up on a large cattle station in the Kimberly's in northern Western Australia and the local Aboriginals called me Wallingnuma so I use it sometimes as a username just to confuse everyone.
The motor I built from a bare D block 1971 cast I bought off e bay. I had it bored out to 30 thou, tunnell bored and refaced. I bought all the components and assembled it myself.
The war office (my wife) suggested I should get a hobby so down to the shed I went I wasn't gunna argue. I had previously built a clevland when I was a young fella about 30 years ago so thought I would have another crack at it.
I was determined to do it right and I didn't need to rush it I just tinkered along doing a lot of research and spit and polishing. You have made me relise though I might have missed a few things like the valve springs. But I don't think they are my problem. this is why I started this thread to see if any one else has had this problem cause I thought I had it right but as you can see I didn't. I would say foriegn matter is probably to blame but the motor did do over 4000km with an oil change and filter every 1000km purring like a kitten. It had done long trips to Perth 700km away with out any probs not even a hint. So who knows where this debris has come from to make this lifter fail. It might have been lurking around in my motor just waiting to pounce or It may have been introduced I don't know but it sure stuffed it.

 

Hi Wallingnuma,

Ok, I'm stupid, how did you attach that pic ?

I don't think that lifter is a surprise !

My 1st choice of reason for the cam/lifter failure is an incorrect run in procedure. ( Comp Cams will confirm !!)

My second choice of reason would be valve springs having too high a pressure, but I doubt it in this case.

How quickly did your engine fire up after the rebuild ?

I've read that link before that crsmiffy posted, and others like it, and I agree on a controlled aggressive break in for the rings, after the 30 minute cam break in, but not for the cam.
That said, I've only broken in 2 flat tappet cams, successfully as per instructions, so my knowledge for a broader comparison is therefore limited.

Did you change the oil and filter immediately after the break in ?

If not, you'd have cam/lifter crap all over your engine, but I doubt that would have caused your problem. Still, it's not good for the engine.

I reckon the debris is a result of the break in failure.

If you think that the debris had been lurking around prior to initial start up, that tells me that the block wasn't cleaned !?

Did you thoroughly clean the block, inclusive of ALL oil channels, and change the 2 front and back oil channel plugs ?

There's not many people can say they've built a V8, or even attempted it, and you can, so
I wouldn't be too hard on yourself.

I would though, buy a Rebuild book for the engine to use as a guideline and checklist. I used a book by Tom Monroe. He keeps things simple and to the point.

I don't know if you thoroughly 'blueprinted' your engine, but whether a yes or no, you have that to look forward to.

Do you know your current, or intended, compression ratios, cranking pressure and squish ?

You didn't say if your rear seal was a one piece or 2 piece !

Ok, enough of the serious stuff.
Your upbringing sounds awesome ! Lucky ******* !!
I pictured the film 'Australia' as I read about the cattle station.
I like the nickname and its origination too.
I was born and brought up in Belfast, Northern Ireland. Ummm, no comparison ! LOL

LMAO, does 'Mrs Wallingnuma' know she's being referred to as the War Office ?

Cheerz4now,
Nick