Bio diesel
Junior User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Bio diesel
I wasn't implying that bio-diesel wasn't attractive - I run it myself in my daily driver, a VW TDI Golf. The debate is really whether it could reasonably be a replacement for petro-diesel. There's certainly plenty of bio-mass to support those who like alternative fuels, etc., but you have to take into account that most diesel is burned in commercial/industrial settings, and supplying that demand would take a hell of a lot of acres of soybeans.
Using consumption data from this source:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...df/table23.pdf
and the calc above, it would take 57 million acres of soybeans to supply our yearly diesel needs.
Using consumption data from this source:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...df/table23.pdf
and the calc above, it would take 57 million acres of soybeans to supply our yearly diesel needs.
Last edited by gavin; May 20, 2003 at 11:04 AM.
Post Fiend
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,324
Likes: 1
From: Denton,TX
Bio diesel
When you consider the fact that diesel fuel is much less refined than gasoline, gets better mileage than a gas engine, and that there is a viable alternative fuel, diesels really have a lot more to offer us in the future than gasoline engines. Maybe technology wouldn't allow us to completely replace diesel with biodiesel at this point, but I'm sure that if all possible fuel sources were recycled it could make a huge dent in the demand. Someday technology should allow biodiesel to be produced in greater quantities. In the meantime, they could always use a blend, like B20, to help reduce the use of petro fuels.
Keep in mind, the products used to produce biodiesel don't need to be new. We wouldn't need 57 million acres of soybeans because a lot of recycled products are available. Sources would be:
1. New crops used to produce biodiesel, such as soybeans
2. Recycled renewable oils, like cooking oils
3. Recycled animal fats
Keep in mind, the products used to produce biodiesel don't need to be new. We wouldn't need 57 million acres of soybeans because a lot of recycled products are available. Sources would be:
1. New crops used to produce biodiesel, such as soybeans
2. Recycled renewable oils, like cooking oils
3. Recycled animal fats
Last edited by johnsdiesel; May 20, 2003 at 11:15 AM.
Senior User
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 467
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From: On the farm near Loveland
Bio diesel
it would take 57 million acres of soybeans to supply our yearly diesel needs.
Bear in mind that figure is based on using 100% new soy oil for fuel production, any oil, new or used, could be made into bio-diesel.
Honestly, I don't see why this country doesn't start taking advantage of this resource. Going 100% bio is obviously impractical, but even 10%-20% of our needs would put a huge dent in what we need to buy from Sheik Yerbootie.
There's no drilling or exploration needed, there should be no debate with environmentalists like with off-shore and arctic drilling, there's no net gain of greenhouse gas, unlike hydrogen fuel, the technology is here, right now and the fuel can be used in existing vehicles. The delivery infrastructure is in place. Biodiesel is a technical no-brainer to manufacture. Diesels run great on the stuff, just as much power and their tailpipe emissions are greatly cut, too, helping out our urban areas. Unlike cenventional diesel fuel, there's zero sulfur in biodiesel, cutting tailpipe emissions even more. Farmers, hard-hit by years of low crop prices would benefit and the money stays and is spent right here.
I have no idea why our government isn't encouraging and promoting the use of this resource.
Last edited by Paarrothead; May 20, 2003 at 12:09 PM.
Elder User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
From: Laveen
Bio diesel
You neglected the other sources of oil. Peanuts, corn, safflower/sunflower, Rapeseed/canola (which is already used as an industrial lubricant) palm oil which by the way is a saturated vegetable fat, not all vegetable oils are good for you, but diesels don't suffer from cholesterol problems. And there are more including castor bean which was the original Castrol engine oil. It was better than petroleum oils when they developed it as it didn't break down at as low a temperature as the original petroleum lubricants did and was great for racing engines. And most of these products have dual uses after extracting the oil the solids can be used as foods and animal feeds.
Interesting thing about castor bean oils I remember reading about the Gnome radials (French) using and leaking large quantities of the oil as they didn’t seal well and the pilots literally got bathed in it at times and would accidentally ingest the oil. It doesn’t take much castor oil ingested to irritate the bowels and do its thing, so a lot of pilots literally hit the ground running.
Interesting thing about castor bean oils I remember reading about the Gnome radials (French) using and leaking large quantities of the oil as they didn’t seal well and the pilots literally got bathed in it at times and would accidentally ingest the oil. It doesn’t take much castor oil ingested to irritate the bowels and do its thing, so a lot of pilots literally hit the ground running.
Senior User
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 467
Likes: 0
From: On the farm near Loveland
Bio diesel
Straight palm oil is reportedly an *excellent* diesel fuel without having to be converted at all. Main drawbacks are high cost, limited supply, and high cloud and gelling temps. Straight olive oil is supposed to be good, too.
You could drive around smelling like a cooking pizza.
You could drive around smelling like a cooking pizza.
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,558
Likes: 45
From: Concord, NC
Bio diesel
Bio diesel is a very good alternative to regular diesel. There are a couple storage issues with bio diesel that I'm aware of, mostly that it can grow algae because the fuel is organic. However, that shouldn't be a problem for a daily driven vehicle, and probably close to non-existent when used as a blend with regular diesel.
Post Fiend
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,324
Likes: 1
From: Denton,TX
Bio diesel
Originally posted by EPNCSU2006
There are a couple storage issues with bio diesel that I'm aware of, mostly that it can grow algae because the fuel is organic.
There are a couple storage issues with bio diesel that I'm aware of, mostly that it can grow algae because the fuel is organic.
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Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,748
Likes: 16
From: Connecticut
Bio diesel
This is a great thread and heck of a crash course on bio-diesel. It has led me to due a little more research on the subject. I ran across this Technical Paper on the internet and thought it was interesting and relevant to this discussion. It's very long, but if you scroll through it you will find some very good information. For those of you who hate long tech papers with symbols and numbers and graphs and such, here is an attempt at a summary of the important points:
........This Report presents a technical analysis of the effect of biodiesel on exhaust emissions from diesel-powered vehicles. It analyzes pre-existing data from various emissions test programs to investigate these effects. The conclusions drawn in this Technical Report represent the current understanding of this specific technical issue, and are subject to re-evaluation at any time. The purpose of this Technical Report is to provide information to interested parties who may be evaluating the value, effectiveness, and appropriateness of the use of biodiesel.
......Biodiesel can be produced from a wide variety of feedstocks. The studies that comprise our database included only a portion of the many feedstocks possible, though they do represent the most common feedstocks.
Soybeans
Rapeseeds
Canola oil
Grease
Tallow
Lard
.....Emissions of all pollutants except NOx appear to decrease when biodiesel is used. The fact that NOx emissions increase with increasing biodiesel concentration could be a detriment....
.....Biodiesel use will generally reduce the number of miles that a vehicle can be driven on a gallon of fuel due to its lower energy content in comparison to conventional diesel fuel.....
....Since biodiesel is produced from plant oils or animal fats, it has been promoted as a means for reducing emissions of carbon dioxide that would otherwise be produced from the combustion of petroleum-based fuels. Carbon dioxide is considered by many to be an important component in global warming, though other pollutants can also play a role. The total impact that biodiesel could have on global warming would be a function not just of its combustion products, but also of the emissions associated with the full biodiesel production and consumption lifecycle. A study of the full lifecycle emission impacts of biodiesel is beyond the scope of this analysis, and we defer to previous and ongoing studies on this issue6,7. For this analysis, we have focused only on the calculation of CO2 emissions as a function of biodiesel end use.....the result is that this correlation predicts almost no effect of biodiesel on emissions of carbon dioxide for plant-based biodiesel added to an 'average' base fuel. The correlation does predict that the addition of biodiesel to a clean base fuel causes a moderate increase in carbon dioxide emissions, while the use of animal-based biodiesel with an average base fuel is predicted to produce a slight decrease. The correlation suggests that biodiesel will produce higher CO2 emissions if it is blended with a clean base fuel instead of an average base fuel.....Therefore, we cannot confidently conclude either way that biodiesel increases or decreases CO2 emissions based on these analyses....
.....All biodiesel blends in our database were placed into one of two base fuel groups: clean or average....For all four pollutants [NOx PM HC CO], the base fuel appears to have a significant impact on the correlation between biodiesel concentration and emissions.
.....The analyses described above suggest that the correlation between biodiesel concentration and emissions should include adjustments for biodiesel source, engine standards groups, and base
fuel.
.....In addition to impacts on regulated pollutants, we also investigated the impact that biodiesel has on emissions of unregulated hazardous air pollutants, hereafter referred to as toxics.....Based on [our] analysis, we could reasonably conclude that total toxics are reduced when biodiesel is added to conventional diesel fuel.
Acetaldehyde: All analyses suggest a statistically significant reduction in acetaldehyde emissions with increasing biodiesel concentration.
Ethylbenzene: All analyses suggest a statistically significant reduction in ethylbenzene emissions with increasing biodiesel concentration.
Formaldehyde: All analyses suggest a statistically significant reduction in formaldehyde emissions with increasing biodiesel concentration.
Naphthalene: All analyses suggest a statistically significant reduction in naphthalene emissions with increasing biodiesel concentration.
Xylene: All analyses suggest a statistically significant reduction in naphthalene emissions with increasing biodiesel concentration
Sorry about the length
........This Report presents a technical analysis of the effect of biodiesel on exhaust emissions from diesel-powered vehicles. It analyzes pre-existing data from various emissions test programs to investigate these effects. The conclusions drawn in this Technical Report represent the current understanding of this specific technical issue, and are subject to re-evaluation at any time. The purpose of this Technical Report is to provide information to interested parties who may be evaluating the value, effectiveness, and appropriateness of the use of biodiesel.
......Biodiesel can be produced from a wide variety of feedstocks. The studies that comprise our database included only a portion of the many feedstocks possible, though they do represent the most common feedstocks.
Soybeans
Rapeseeds
Canola oil
Grease
Tallow
Lard
.....Emissions of all pollutants except NOx appear to decrease when biodiesel is used. The fact that NOx emissions increase with increasing biodiesel concentration could be a detriment....
.....Biodiesel use will generally reduce the number of miles that a vehicle can be driven on a gallon of fuel due to its lower energy content in comparison to conventional diesel fuel.....
....Since biodiesel is produced from plant oils or animal fats, it has been promoted as a means for reducing emissions of carbon dioxide that would otherwise be produced from the combustion of petroleum-based fuels. Carbon dioxide is considered by many to be an important component in global warming, though other pollutants can also play a role. The total impact that biodiesel could have on global warming would be a function not just of its combustion products, but also of the emissions associated with the full biodiesel production and consumption lifecycle. A study of the full lifecycle emission impacts of biodiesel is beyond the scope of this analysis, and we defer to previous and ongoing studies on this issue6,7. For this analysis, we have focused only on the calculation of CO2 emissions as a function of biodiesel end use.....the result is that this correlation predicts almost no effect of biodiesel on emissions of carbon dioxide for plant-based biodiesel added to an 'average' base fuel. The correlation does predict that the addition of biodiesel to a clean base fuel causes a moderate increase in carbon dioxide emissions, while the use of animal-based biodiesel with an average base fuel is predicted to produce a slight decrease. The correlation suggests that biodiesel will produce higher CO2 emissions if it is blended with a clean base fuel instead of an average base fuel.....Therefore, we cannot confidently conclude either way that biodiesel increases or decreases CO2 emissions based on these analyses....
.....All biodiesel blends in our database were placed into one of two base fuel groups: clean or average....For all four pollutants [NOx PM HC CO], the base fuel appears to have a significant impact on the correlation between biodiesel concentration and emissions.
.....The analyses described above suggest that the correlation between biodiesel concentration and emissions should include adjustments for biodiesel source, engine standards groups, and base
fuel.
.....In addition to impacts on regulated pollutants, we also investigated the impact that biodiesel has on emissions of unregulated hazardous air pollutants, hereafter referred to as toxics.....Based on [our] analysis, we could reasonably conclude that total toxics are reduced when biodiesel is added to conventional diesel fuel.
Acetaldehyde: All analyses suggest a statistically significant reduction in acetaldehyde emissions with increasing biodiesel concentration.
Ethylbenzene: All analyses suggest a statistically significant reduction in ethylbenzene emissions with increasing biodiesel concentration.
Formaldehyde: All analyses suggest a statistically significant reduction in formaldehyde emissions with increasing biodiesel concentration.
Naphthalene: All analyses suggest a statistically significant reduction in naphthalene emissions with increasing biodiesel concentration.
Xylene: All analyses suggest a statistically significant reduction in naphthalene emissions with increasing biodiesel concentration
Sorry about the length
Last edited by Rockledge; May 20, 2003 at 02:52 PM.
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,558
Likes: 45
From: Concord, NC
Bio diesel
Regular diesel can grow algae too.
Elder User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 535
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From: Laveen
Bio diesel
Over all it is better enviromentally, the reduction in overall toxic by products to include the aquisition and refining end of the industry makes it attractive. some of the oils do have temperature limitations, Put a jug of olive oil in the refrigerator and you can see why its great in hot weather but if you drove up to say Flagstaff to ski for the weekend it could be a problem.
Also there are acids it some of these oils especially used cooking oils that can mix with moisture and create problems, but again they say these are not a problem in daily use only storage. I read a warning that said if you weren't sure of the pedigree of the oil run a couple of tanks of good diesel through the engine before going into cold climates or storing the vehicle. Kinda like when we took our vehicles to Alaska and the told us to make sure we ran diesel one through the systems before we went, try finding anything but DF2 in Phoenix AZ. I had to take a Blazer with a diesel to Flagstaff one weekend and discovered the glow plugs were bad, it started fine down here at 110 degrees (they have a module that disables the glow plug above about 85 deg.)
Also there are acids it some of these oils especially used cooking oils that can mix with moisture and create problems, but again they say these are not a problem in daily use only storage. I read a warning that said if you weren't sure of the pedigree of the oil run a couple of tanks of good diesel through the engine before going into cold climates or storing the vehicle. Kinda like when we took our vehicles to Alaska and the told us to make sure we ran diesel one through the systems before we went, try finding anything but DF2 in Phoenix AZ. I had to take a Blazer with a diesel to Flagstaff one weekend and discovered the glow plugs were bad, it started fine down here at 110 degrees (they have a module that disables the glow plug above about 85 deg.)
New User
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: Maui
Bio diesel
I use 100% biodiesel in a 2001 F-450 Powerstroke flatbed and 4 other company vehicles, including the Bio-Beetle rental car - www.bio-beetle.com. I think it's a great fuel and I promote it at every opportunity. Pacific Biodiesel is my fuel supplier.
Of the 5 vehicles only the two Internationals needed any modification, and that was just to replace rubber fuel lines and to change the fuel filters a few times during the first year we started running biodiesel.
These 5 vehicles have combined for over 132,000 miles on 100% biodiesel. And if you count two of my employees and a friend who are running on biodiesel we are over 210,000 miles.
Of the 5 vehicles only the two Internationals needed any modification, and that was just to replace rubber fuel lines and to change the fuel filters a few times during the first year we started running biodiesel.
These 5 vehicles have combined for over 132,000 miles on 100% biodiesel. And if you count two of my employees and a friend who are running on biodiesel we are over 210,000 miles.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,748
Likes: 16
From: Connecticut
Bio diesel
I came across this link as a result of a post in another forum. It has some good info and references on Bio-Diesel:
http://www.greenfuels.org/bioindex.html
http://www.greenfuels.org/bioindex.html
Junior User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
From: Chehalis, WA
Bio diesel
http://www.homepower.com/files/biodiesel72.pdf
Excellent article on biodiesel. My grandfather and I have been running our John Deere model R and a Cat D7 hi-track on biodiesel for 4 years; it's really quite easy to produce and most restaraunts will just give the used grease to you. We have less than $100 into our mixing setup and produce 50 gallons per month on a regular basis, sometimes as much as 130 gallons. Typically, it costs us about $.12-.15 per gallon to make, price of electricity included.
Excellent article on biodiesel. My grandfather and I have been running our John Deere model R and a Cat D7 hi-track on biodiesel for 4 years; it's really quite easy to produce and most restaraunts will just give the used grease to you. We have less than $100 into our mixing setup and produce 50 gallons per month on a regular basis, sometimes as much as 130 gallons. Typically, it costs us about $.12-.15 per gallon to make, price of electricity included.
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