Alternative Fuels
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Elder User
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Coleman, Wisconsin
Alternative Fuels
Whats the stuff that they mix in with gasoline in the bigger cities? I know a guy that is forced to use that stuff because he lives near Milwaukee, and he said his vehicles don't run as well compared to pure gas. Power is lower too.
Post Fiend
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Coutts Canada
Alternative Fuels
"Ethanol is the only fuel that will work in all gasoline engines right now."
That is not entirely true. If you mean to the buying public then yes. I say this because almost every company that has the resources (this is just every one) Has a working hydrogen car that runs on hydrogen, although there are some problems with detonation because of hyrogen's low ignition temperature, but the best example for this is the mazda rotarys motors. The setup is similar to that of vehicle that run on propane except the hydrogen is stored at higher pressures.
That is not entirely true. If you mean to the buying public then yes. I say this because almost every company that has the resources (this is just every one) Has a working hydrogen car that runs on hydrogen, although there are some problems with detonation because of hyrogen's low ignition temperature, but the best example for this is the mazda rotarys motors. The setup is similar to that of vehicle that run on propane except the hydrogen is stored at higher pressures.
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,236
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From: Vancouver Island
Alternative Fuels
Back in the days of severe fuel shortages (like WW2) many vehicles were converted to burn wood or coal. More or less what happens is that the fuel is heated in a retort, and the gases that come off are collected to run the engine. Do a search on "producer gas" to find out more about this.
Postmaster
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Calgary Canada
Alternative Fuels
Originally posted by mattsbox99
Millions of bushels of corn and wheat go unused because of low prices and low demand because of foreign competition. Ethanol alone is a poor lubricator compared to gasoline. In South America they have 85/15 ethanol/gasoline mixtures and the vehicles burn cleaner and cheaper. If we don't at least explore alternative fuels fo the meantime, like right now. Ethanol is the only fuel that will work in all gasoline engines right now. THIS IS A SHORT TERM SOLUTION!
Millions of bushels of corn and wheat go unused because of low prices and low demand because of foreign competition. Ethanol alone is a poor lubricator compared to gasoline. In South America they have 85/15 ethanol/gasoline mixtures and the vehicles burn cleaner and cheaper. If we don't at least explore alternative fuels fo the meantime, like right now. Ethanol is the only fuel that will work in all gasoline engines right now. THIS IS A SHORT TERM SOLUTION!
Where do get the number of millions of bushels going to waste, and what do you mean by "going to waste". Rotting in bins? Or not being sold at a large profit?
Ask your local cattle rancher if he likes the idea of ethanol. It would put him in direct competition for feed grain, driving up the price. It's true that the some of the byproduct of ethanol generation is good cattle feed, but not nearly sufficient to meet market demands. The result is bad for him, and you and me.
Also, there are a lot of outdoorsman on this board, IMHO, a move to ethanol would lead to the breaking and farming of land that is not economic or productive (ie. prime hunting habitat) in an effort to produce more grain, regardless of productivity of the land.
So cleaner maybe, cheaper, I say no. I think a conversion to ethanol is kinda like swallowing a spider to catch the fly. It doesn't make much sense to spend the money required on ethanol rather than focusing on technologies that have long term potential. Ethanol is a band-aid at best.
Waxy
Post Fiend
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Coutts Canada
Alternative Fuels
Here is a site (its one of the awards we won) where a good overview of our paper for the hydrogen project we did is located:
http://www.montanagreenpower.com/sol...ncefairwinners
http://www.montanagreenpower.com/sol...ncefairwinners
Lead Driver
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,140
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From: Oak Harbor, OH
Alternative Fuels
Congrats, pretty cool.... send me a copy of the report YOU wrote, my email is in my profile (click on the profile link under my post.)
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Elder User
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: 5600 feet high
Alternative Fuels
Hey! Everybody! I am living a LIE!
Mattsbox hasn't done much research into hemp and it's enormous potential. He thinks people smoke it!!
Sorry, I have to clown you, man. Hemp doesn't require anything but a few cups of enzymes to break it down and produce hydrogen (see also: pyrolisis). No biomass requires more than that, for that matter. It's all carbon-based, bro.
Hemp isn't the only thing available to produce bio-diesel; any organic plant matter will work. And I don't know alot of people that use corn stalks or banana peels for anything besides compost. It's WASTE material, nobody competes over it.
My favorite alternative fuel is ethanol. It's not that expensive to produce when you put your figures next to the costs and risks involved it importing and transporting petroleum, and it can be produced at the local level. That would make it very inexpensive to the consumer.
Realistically, we won't ever stop using petroleum; it's a great fuel source. But alternatives are needed, plain and simple.
BDV
Mattsbox hasn't done much research into hemp and it's enormous potential. He thinks people smoke it!!
Sorry, I have to clown you, man. Hemp doesn't require anything but a few cups of enzymes to break it down and produce hydrogen (see also: pyrolisis). No biomass requires more than that, for that matter. It's all carbon-based, bro.
Hemp isn't the only thing available to produce bio-diesel; any organic plant matter will work. And I don't know alot of people that use corn stalks or banana peels for anything besides compost. It's WASTE material, nobody competes over it.
My favorite alternative fuel is ethanol. It's not that expensive to produce when you put your figures next to the costs and risks involved it importing and transporting petroleum, and it can be produced at the local level. That would make it very inexpensive to the consumer.
Realistically, we won't ever stop using petroleum; it's a great fuel source. But alternatives are needed, plain and simple.
BDV
Postmaster
Joined: Feb 2003
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Alternative Fuels
Corn stalks and bannanna peels are waste now because no one has an economic use for them. If they become useful in the production of fuel then they become valuable and people will be competing for them.
What I want to know is how much bio-fuel could be produced from 1 acre of land. And I also want to know how much fuel would be needed to produce that raw material from the acre. If it takes 10 gallons per acre to produce a crop and the crop yeilds less than 10 gallons of bio fuel it is then not sustainable in the long run as an alternative fuel source.
What I want to know is how much bio-fuel could be produced from 1 acre of land. And I also want to know how much fuel would be needed to produce that raw material from the acre. If it takes 10 gallons per acre to produce a crop and the crop yeilds less than 10 gallons of bio fuel it is then not sustainable in the long run as an alternative fuel source.
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: 5600 feet high
Alternative Fuels
You have a great point, supercab. It would cause competition.
But that wouldn't be that bad, really; if a farmer has 1000 acres of corn he'll have tons of waste matter. Let the companies that want the biomass compete for the purchase of these products, and the farmer will see the benefits of competition. If a company wanted to give a farmer a contract for the use of his waste material, and if that company arranged for pick-up and removal of the product, the farmer would make more money. Ask any farmer what he needs the more of right now...
And it wouldn't raise the price of produce, because the two products are not linked in the market.
If competition determined the prices paid for household biomass (grass clippings, leaves, etc.) it would make it a nice perk for the homeowner. Perhaps one day we'll get $.05 a pound for our grass...
BDV
But that wouldn't be that bad, really; if a farmer has 1000 acres of corn he'll have tons of waste matter. Let the companies that want the biomass compete for the purchase of these products, and the farmer will see the benefits of competition. If a company wanted to give a farmer a contract for the use of his waste material, and if that company arranged for pick-up and removal of the product, the farmer would make more money. Ask any farmer what he needs the more of right now...
And it wouldn't raise the price of produce, because the two products are not linked in the market.
If competition determined the prices paid for household biomass (grass clippings, leaves, etc.) it would make it a nice perk for the homeowner. Perhaps one day we'll get $.05 a pound for our grass...
BDV
Postmaster
Joined: Feb 2003
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Alternative Fuels
Yes, but that still leaves the question how much bio fuel can be produced vs how much is used to produce it?
Any farmers out there that can answer? What is your total fuel usage for a year vs how many acres do you farm?
BDV how many gallons of bio-fuel can be produced from a ton of matter?
I'll see if I can find out how much matter is produced per acre. Lets put some numbers to this and see if it really is a viable solution.
Any farmers out there that can answer? What is your total fuel usage for a year vs how many acres do you farm?
BDV how many gallons of bio-fuel can be produced from a ton of matter?
I'll see if I can find out how much matter is produced per acre. Lets put some numbers to this and see if it really is a viable solution.
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: 5600 feet high
Alternative Fuels
I don't know the figures; it would really depend on the crop. Some would produce more than others...
This is why hemp is a good fuel source. It is planted so densely that an acre produces many times more plant matter than any other crop. A square foot of soil can support almost 30 full grown hemp plants, and those plant reach heights of 11 feet or more.
The best part about hemp is that the plant would be used for fiber, leaving behind "hurds", which still comprises the bulk of the plants' mass. Hemp works best for bio-diesel, but it still has a high enough natural sugar content to produce ethanol, though not very efficiently.
As I've said, petroleum is too great of a fuel source to eliminate, but if bio-deisel and ethanol were used to supplement our consumption, it would lessen our dependance on foreign oil, which is my personal motivation for promoting bio-fuels.
If you get some figures, supercab, please post them!
BDV
This is why hemp is a good fuel source. It is planted so densely that an acre produces many times more plant matter than any other crop. A square foot of soil can support almost 30 full grown hemp plants, and those plant reach heights of 11 feet or more.
The best part about hemp is that the plant would be used for fiber, leaving behind "hurds", which still comprises the bulk of the plants' mass. Hemp works best for bio-diesel, but it still has a high enough natural sugar content to produce ethanol, though not very efficiently.
As I've said, petroleum is too great of a fuel source to eliminate, but if bio-deisel and ethanol were used to supplement our consumption, it would lessen our dependance on foreign oil, which is my personal motivation for promoting bio-fuels.
If you get some figures, supercab, please post them!
BDV
Post Fiend
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,871
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From: Coutts Canada
Alternative Fuels
I can tell you that my dad goes through 5000 gallons of diseal in two versatile tractors (850 and a 875) and one case combine (1480 i believe) in one year one 3200 arces, but half of that is on some very very hilly gound. (just so you know that pullin a 42' john deere cultivator with a valmor , and also a 42' set of versatile drills)