351c engine or redo 351w?
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From: louisiana
351c engine or redo 351w?
ok i was thinking about of a 351c inplace of my 351w which i got kinda hop up with 472 lift cam..weiand stealth intake..headers..600cfm edelbrock carb..everything else is stock..but the engine is kinda older and higer miles to ..i am wanting to replace it with a rebuilt 351c with the same kind of performance parts but nothing radical..anybody opinion ..would i be better off getting the windsor rebuilt again maybe go with a some aftermarket heads..or go with a rebuilt 351c always heard they have more stock power to build from than a windsor
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351c engine or redo 351w?
As far as I know these figures are from independent testing. All Figures @ 28"of H2O. http://home.isoa.net/%7Emharrisj/fordhead.html
I've been told that a conservative estimate for maximum power is about 200 HP per 100CFM on the intake side. There are several aftermarket heads that can equal or exceed 351C head flow with no problem.
If you just want to be different and love to prove the sceptics wrong, build the 351C. If you want an easier, more cost effective way to make power, most will agree on a 351W.
I've been told that a conservative estimate for maximum power is about 200 HP per 100CFM on the intake side. There are several aftermarket heads that can equal or exceed 351C head flow with no problem.
If you just want to be different and love to prove the sceptics wrong, build the 351C. If you want an easier, more cost effective way to make power, most will agree on a 351W.
Post Fiend
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From: Montana Territory
351c engine or redo 351w?
They only real difference between a 351 C and W is the cylinder heads. You could go find a beat up 5.0 Mustang and pull off the heads and get the same flow. They will bolt right on. Also there are about 10,000 different aftermarkety parts for the 351W and 11 that make aftermarket parts for the Cleveland.
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351c engine or redo 351w?
I wouldn't necessarily say the Windsor is a cheaper, more cost-effective way to build power -- it's almost mandatory to have some sort of aftermarket heads to produce the best power from them, so there is a quick $700+, even up into the $1000+ for aluminum models. Then if you want to stroke it, throw in another thousand or two for the stroker crank and pistons, and by then the Windsor just isn't so cost-effective anymore. If it isn't stroked, the cost (and probably power) should be about the same, other than aftermarket heads. The Windsor however will generally make it's peak torque at lower revs than the Cleveland, which is good for trucks. The Cleveland has little aftermarket following compared to the Windsor, but comparing the base engine to base engine, the Cleveland (should) produce marginally more power over the entire RPM range than the Windsor, only with about 25 or so more pounds. They are both excellent engines, I'm just biased towards the Cleveland. If you already have all of the "go fast" stuff for the Windsor, it would be an easy answer for me; build the Windsor.
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351c engine or redo 351w?
I still say most will agree, but I expect some objections, especially here.
Understand that I'm speaking as a big fan of the 335 series. I wouldn't have 4 Clevelands and 2 400s if I weren't.
Pros.
He already has a 351W
The cylinders are thicker, .060 overbore is common
Deck height is taller, 9.480-9.500"
Several aftermarket cranks are available in almost any stroke you could imagine.
Aftermarket parts are everywhere. Generally prices for any new part will be less, and there's a goldmine of used parts at much lower prices because so many performance parts have been made in the last 10-15 years. They're like Small Block Chevys.
The weight is about 50lbs less.
Stock heads work fine with minor improvements for power levels up to 400HP.
Machine work is slightly less expensive for non-canted valve heads, all shops are familiar with Windsor type heads.
I didn't get into any stroker info because I'm comparing the same displacement, but potentially the taller deck will allow a streetable 427+ displacement. 393 is about the practical limit for a 9.200" deck.
To be continued.........
Understand that I'm speaking as a big fan of the 335 series. I wouldn't have 4 Clevelands and 2 400s if I weren't.
Pros.
He already has a 351W
The cylinders are thicker, .060 overbore is common
Deck height is taller, 9.480-9.500"
Several aftermarket cranks are available in almost any stroke you could imagine.
Aftermarket parts are everywhere. Generally prices for any new part will be less, and there's a goldmine of used parts at much lower prices because so many performance parts have been made in the last 10-15 years. They're like Small Block Chevys.
The weight is about 50lbs less.
Stock heads work fine with minor improvements for power levels up to 400HP.
Machine work is slightly less expensive for non-canted valve heads, all shops are familiar with Windsor type heads.
I didn't get into any stroker info because I'm comparing the same displacement, but potentially the taller deck will allow a streetable 427+ displacement. 393 is about the practical limit for a 9.200" deck.
To be continued.........
Senior User
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351c engine or redo 351w?
Agreed, but it seems to me the Cleveland can generally be built for about the same price as a Windsor. I just rebuilt a 302 that was about as much as my 351C. But I'm with you; if you've got the Windsor, and already have some performance parts for it, I'd go with it.
Post Fiend
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From: Montana Territory
351c engine or redo 351w?
The Cleveland would cost 3x as much as a Wheezer to build, there are no where near the number of parts and manufacturers that there are for the Wheezer. I think the wheezer is a far better engine for a rebuild or stroker combination.
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351c engine or redo 351w?
Don't know where you buy your parts, but a Cleveland isn't near 3X as much to build. They just have less aftermarket following. As an example, out of the current Summit catalog:
Pistons
351C (L2379F, 10.63:1) $239.60
351W (L2446F 9.19:1) $263.60
Cam
Comp Cams 268H
351C $99.95
351W $91.95
Intake
Edelbrock Performer
351C (P/N EDL-2750 (2V)) $189.95
351W (P/N EDL-2181 $169.95
Timing Set
351C (P/N EDL-7821) $54.95
351W (P/N EDL-7820) $47.95
Oil Pump
351C (Melling M84AHV) $34.95
351w (Melling M83HV) $42.95
......and so on and so forth. As you can see, the differences are marginal at best, with the Cleveland being cheaper in some instances. Sure, it would be cheaper to stroke the Windsor, but why fart around with stroking either of them when you can build a 400 that starts out with more cubes than either stroked (except the 408W), and when moderately built will out-torque either one at lower revs, and do it for thousands less?
Pistons
351C (L2379F, 10.63:1) $239.60
351W (L2446F 9.19:1) $263.60
Cam
Comp Cams 268H
351C $99.95
351W $91.95
Intake
Edelbrock Performer
351C (P/N EDL-2750 (2V)) $189.95
351W (P/N EDL-2181 $169.95
Timing Set
351C (P/N EDL-7821) $54.95
351W (P/N EDL-7820) $47.95
Oil Pump
351C (Melling M84AHV) $34.95
351w (Melling M83HV) $42.95
......and so on and so forth. As you can see, the differences are marginal at best, with the Cleveland being cheaper in some instances. Sure, it would be cheaper to stroke the Windsor, but why fart around with stroking either of them when you can build a 400 that starts out with more cubes than either stroked (except the 408W), and when moderately built will out-torque either one at lower revs, and do it for thousands less?
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Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Montana Territory
351c engine or redo 351w?
I talking about real parts like cylinder heads, virgin blocks, virgin and modified cranks. The cleveland parts are harder to find and considerably more expensive. Common parts such as those listed are easy to find through summit and jegs, try to find them at your local parts palace.
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351c engine or redo 351w?
Try to find which, the "common parts" or the virgin blocks and heads? I can order the common parts for either all day long, here in town, or through Summit, Jeggs, or PAW. As for the virgin blocks and heads, they may be readily available for the Windsor, but how much do you want to pay? I'd rather sink $3500 into a '70s vintage 351C or 400 than drop $10,000 on a brand new Windsor. Can't see the advantage.
Post Fiend
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From: Montana Territory
351c engine or redo 351w?
I am tired of arguing with you. I give up, it doesn't even matter I am not the one that is building this motor. I know that there are different combinations available for both motors. You can spend 10,000+$ an any motor just look at Shazam. The Windsor is easier to build than the Cleveland for sheer parts availability. You can not argue with that. The Windsor has far more combinations and build sheets/specs than either Cleveland. You can't argue that either.
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351c engine or redo 351w?
I didn't intend to argue with you, but I get tired of hearing the misconception that "Clevelands are hard to build", and "Clevelands are expensive to build". Niether is true and for the most part comes from people who really don't know, they just parrot what they hear. Yes, there is a ton of aftermarket parts for the Windsor; and the 351W crowd can thank the 5.0 Mustang for that. If not for the 5.0 craze, the Windsor would still be in the Clevelands shadow. Period. The Boss 351 outran many big-blocks in the quarter mile, and you can't argue with that. The Windsor didn't even make a blip on the screen during the muscle car era. As for trucks, the Windsor makes better power down low, so it is a great choice. I prefer the Cleveland, you can have the Windsor. They are both excellent engines. It's nothing to get uptight about.
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From: Jax FL
351c engine or redo 351w?
i believe dart makes new iron and aluminium ford 351 blocks. The amazing part is you can get them in windsor or cleveland specs. Best of all the cost is the same.
GT40's Xmas wish list
aluminium Aussie heads - @ $1500 US shipped to my house
aluminium cleveland type block - $2300-$2500
i know what to do from here.
Now I might just sleep Clevelands to much, but they do make 6 - 12% more hp on average than a W block.
how to make a 408
351w + stroker kit ($1430-$2000) + machine work
351C + stroker kit ($1460-$2000) + machine work
400 + .030 over pistons/ machine work
GT40's Xmas wish list
aluminium Aussie heads - @ $1500 US shipped to my house
aluminium cleveland type block - $2300-$2500
i know what to do from here.
Now I might just sleep Clevelands to much, but they do make 6 - 12% more hp on average than a W block.
how to make a 408
351w + stroker kit ($1430-$2000) + machine work
351C + stroker kit ($1460-$2000) + machine work
400 + .030 over pistons/ machine work
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351c engine or redo 351w?
I don't remember hearing about any aluminum Dart blocks. See a short article here about the iron versions. http://66.96.130.106/archives/2002/0...ck/index.shtml
All the new blocks and cranks are based off the 351W. You can get many of them with a 351C deck height, 9.2" and 351C main journal diameters, 2.75", but they need some minor adapting to work with production 351C parts. Mainly things like timing gear spacers or coolant passages redirected.
351C timing gears, cover, cam, dizzy gear, water pump, fuel pump, thermostat housing, oil pan, accessory brackets and other parts are different. Many parts would be replaced in a complete rebuild anyway but if you're planing to re-use any low mileage parts or perform an engine swap, they start to add up after a while.
Aluminum block
http://www.fastfords.net/cobra/engine/block.htm
I don't recommend strokers over 393 for a 351C because a very short piston is required. They increase ring and cylinder wear and tend to burn oil when the bottom ring passes through the wrist pin opening.
There's no real mystery about building a 351C, but for a novice building his first engine, there aren't many places you can ask questions and get an accurate answer. The stock rebuilds are easy but how much fun is that?
All the new blocks and cranks are based off the 351W. You can get many of them with a 351C deck height, 9.2" and 351C main journal diameters, 2.75", but they need some minor adapting to work with production 351C parts. Mainly things like timing gear spacers or coolant passages redirected.
351C timing gears, cover, cam, dizzy gear, water pump, fuel pump, thermostat housing, oil pan, accessory brackets and other parts are different. Many parts would be replaced in a complete rebuild anyway but if you're planing to re-use any low mileage parts or perform an engine swap, they start to add up after a while.
Aluminum block
http://www.fastfords.net/cobra/engine/block.htm
I don't recommend strokers over 393 for a 351C because a very short piston is required. They increase ring and cylinder wear and tend to burn oil when the bottom ring passes through the wrist pin opening.
There's no real mystery about building a 351C, but for a novice building his first engine, there aren't many places you can ask questions and get an accurate answer. The stock rebuilds are easy but how much fun is that?
Last edited by Brian S; Apr 26, 2003 at 01:25 PM.
Elder User
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From: Jax FL
351c engine or redo 351w?
hey brian, i read that in hot rod i think, saw the pricelist the aluminium ones were like 200-300 over the iron. but since that i have not seen any more info, even the dart site fails to mention them.
i thought the were a combo style block, windsor accessories, cleveland mains.
i thought the were a combo style block, windsor accessories, cleveland mains.