Ricks fuel pump analysis
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Joined: Oct 2011
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Subscribing.
And adding a thought.
It seems, to me, a bit short sighted to design a part that will fail so easily if it accidentally processes a bit of water.
I'm no engineer, but have spent 30 years repairing engineers mistakes as an auto mechanic and sometimes it just makes more sense to make the housing out of iron, or design the cam and rollers with adequate hardness to take some "abuse".
I hope this is not a distraction from the topic of the thread.
And adding a thought.
It seems, to me, a bit short sighted to design a part that will fail so easily if it accidentally processes a bit of water.
I'm no engineer, but have spent 30 years repairing engineers mistakes as an auto mechanic and sometimes it just makes more sense to make the housing out of iron, or design the cam and rollers with adequate hardness to take some "abuse".
I hope this is not a distraction from the topic of the thread.
Probably, for reasons of economy, they went to aluminum on the CP4.X series of pumps.
My take on it is that Bosch and Ford were short sighted on this application, and that Ford either knew it going in, or will claim they got sold a Bill of Goods, as they laugh all the way to the bank with insurance claim jobs at 10k a pop. The markup on Bosch parts is ridiculous, both for Bosch and for Ford.
I hope Rick can find some time this weekend to get some pictures up, Inquiring Minds want to know.
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Joined: Apr 2009
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Pump doctor
Great post...reps given
I hear what you are saying about the "water is not a lubricant". The problem here was surely heat and friction related. There are some steel parts inside the pump...you can stick a magnet to them. These parts show no visible evidence of any water infiltration...at least to these admittedly untrained eyes.
There was no evidence of water in the fuel tank. The second dealer drained the tank before they cleaned out all the metal debris. They were especially careful to look for any water as their reputation was on the line. They never wavered in their position that water was not the cause of the failure.
This pump failed catastrophically. Both pistons were stuck in the bore and required the use of a 2 pound hammer to tap them out. What caused the failure is likely to never be discovered. It could be as simple as a bad part that began to gall. There are galled parts inside that defy explanation by the average person. It also could be the fact that the diesel fuel standards in the US are not up to the quality that Bosch requires for a long and successful pump. Bosch's printed specifications require a better scar rating than US standards by roughly 15%.
So, if lack of fuel quality by scar standards is the real culprit in this fiasco, how do the 400,000 owners of these otherwise fine trucks know that the simple act of buying fuel could be destroying their expensive HP fuel system? When the system fails, how is the owner the one to be held responsible? Where is the warning when you buy the truck that tells you that if you put clean, non-contaminated but substandard diesel fuel from a well known high volume fuel depots your subsequent exploding HPFP will not be covered by warranty? Is there a difference between substandard fuel and contaminated fuel?
This is why, as unpopular as it is with some on this site, I will not back down from my position that anyone who owns one of these trucks is subject to the same failure and the same shoddy treatment that I received from Ford. Yes, I believe fuel additives will help..but a better pump that operates to acceptable standards given the quality of fuel available was Ford's obligation to it's customers. Shame on Ford for copping out on both quaility and their customer's
Regards
Great post...reps given
I hear what you are saying about the "water is not a lubricant". The problem here was surely heat and friction related. There are some steel parts inside the pump...you can stick a magnet to them. These parts show no visible evidence of any water infiltration...at least to these admittedly untrained eyes.
There was no evidence of water in the fuel tank. The second dealer drained the tank before they cleaned out all the metal debris. They were especially careful to look for any water as their reputation was on the line. They never wavered in their position that water was not the cause of the failure.
This pump failed catastrophically. Both pistons were stuck in the bore and required the use of a 2 pound hammer to tap them out. What caused the failure is likely to never be discovered. It could be as simple as a bad part that began to gall. There are galled parts inside that defy explanation by the average person. It also could be the fact that the diesel fuel standards in the US are not up to the quality that Bosch requires for a long and successful pump. Bosch's printed specifications require a better scar rating than US standards by roughly 15%.
So, if lack of fuel quality by scar standards is the real culprit in this fiasco, how do the 400,000 owners of these otherwise fine trucks know that the simple act of buying fuel could be destroying their expensive HP fuel system? When the system fails, how is the owner the one to be held responsible? Where is the warning when you buy the truck that tells you that if you put clean, non-contaminated but substandard diesel fuel from a well known high volume fuel depots your subsequent exploding HPFP will not be covered by warranty? Is there a difference between substandard fuel and contaminated fuel?
This is why, as unpopular as it is with some on this site, I will not back down from my position that anyone who owns one of these trucks is subject to the same failure and the same shoddy treatment that I received from Ford. Yes, I believe fuel additives will help..but a better pump that operates to acceptable standards given the quality of fuel available was Ford's obligation to it's customers. Shame on Ford for copping out on both quaility and their customer's
Regards
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 142
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Pump doctor
Great post...reps given
I hear what you are saying about the "water is not a lubricant". The problem here was surely heat and friction related. There are some steel parts inside the pump...you can stick a magnet to them. These parts show no visible evidence of any water infiltration...at least to these admittedly untrained eyes.
There was no evidence of water in the fuel tank. The second dealer drained the tank before they cleaned out all the metal debris. They were especially careful to look for any water as their reputation was on the line. They never wavered in their position that water was not the cause of the failure.
This pump failed catastrophically. Both pistons were stuck in the bore and required the use of a 2 pound hammer to tap them out. What caused the failure is likely to never be discovered. It could be as simple as a bad part that began to gall. There are galled parts inside that defy explanation by the average person. It also could be the fact that the diesel fuel standards in the US are not up to the quality that Bosch requires for a long and successful pump. Bosch's printed specifications require a better scar rating than US standards by roughly 15%.
So, if lack of fuel quality by scar standards is the real culprit in this fiasco, how do the 400,000 owners of these otherwise fine trucks know that the simple act of buying fuel could be destroying their expensive HP fuel system? When the system fails, how is the owner the one to be held responsible? Where is the warning when you buy the truck that tells you that if you put clean, non-contaminated but substandard diesel fuel from a well known high volume fuel depots your subsequent exploding HPFP will not be covered by warranty? Is there a difference between substandard fuel and contaminated fuel?
This is why, as unpopular as it is with some on this site, I will not back down from my position that anyone who owns one of these trucks is subject to the same failure and the same shoddy treatment that I received from Ford. Yes, I believe fuel additives will help..but a better pump that operates to acceptable standards given the quality of fuel available was Ford's obligation to it's customers. Shame on Ford for copping out on both quaility and their customer's
Regards
Great post...reps given
I hear what you are saying about the "water is not a lubricant". The problem here was surely heat and friction related. There are some steel parts inside the pump...you can stick a magnet to them. These parts show no visible evidence of any water infiltration...at least to these admittedly untrained eyes.
There was no evidence of water in the fuel tank. The second dealer drained the tank before they cleaned out all the metal debris. They were especially careful to look for any water as their reputation was on the line. They never wavered in their position that water was not the cause of the failure.
This pump failed catastrophically. Both pistons were stuck in the bore and required the use of a 2 pound hammer to tap them out. What caused the failure is likely to never be discovered. It could be as simple as a bad part that began to gall. There are galled parts inside that defy explanation by the average person. It also could be the fact that the diesel fuel standards in the US are not up to the quality that Bosch requires for a long and successful pump. Bosch's printed specifications require a better scar rating than US standards by roughly 15%.
So, if lack of fuel quality by scar standards is the real culprit in this fiasco, how do the 400,000 owners of these otherwise fine trucks know that the simple act of buying fuel could be destroying their expensive HP fuel system? When the system fails, how is the owner the one to be held responsible? Where is the warning when you buy the truck that tells you that if you put clean, non-contaminated but substandard diesel fuel from a well known high volume fuel depots your subsequent exploding HPFP will not be covered by warranty? Is there a difference between substandard fuel and contaminated fuel?
This is why, as unpopular as it is with some on this site, I will not back down from my position that anyone who owns one of these trucks is subject to the same failure and the same shoddy treatment that I received from Ford. Yes, I believe fuel additives will help..but a better pump that operates to acceptable standards given the quality of fuel available was Ford's obligation to it's customers. Shame on Ford for copping out on both quaility and their customer's
Regards
What about the plungers and their tiny bores? Any thing out of ordinary there? Pounding or galling? Or those tiny retainer like rings? Were they in good shape too, or deformed?
Sounds like a full blown catastrophic meltdown/seizure pump failure, if you had to pound pistons out. I've seen a couple where the pistons were a bit sticky to get out of the bore, but what you have... sounds like a heck of a lot of swarf got into your bore to cause that. Were the pistons dropping all the way down onto the cam when you got the pump, did you even check by giving the pump a couple of rotations?
That's crazy... flat out crazy.
Can I ask a favor of you, Rick? Little less computer time, and a little more picture time... Suspense on those parts... Must... Have... Pictures... sooooon...
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Joined: Feb 2009
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From: Central Florida
Kwikkordead
I agree i started as a mechanic with our company before going back and getting my engineering degree and I have seen alot of poor designs by somebody who would never have to work on them.
Rick
You are completely correct about everything you just said. Simple fix to this design is to put a ball bearing on each of the lobe and lubricate them with the engine oil. Just like a good after market Turbo would go from bushings that are subject to wear from side loads a radial bearing solves these problems and would keep the piston in its correct position preventing the gauling or spontanious welding affect. But as with everything that comes at a cost which some manfactuers do not want to pay for so they settle for the less exspensive model and take their chances. Which in this case might lead to more unhappy customer(rightfully so) if this proves to be a bad design. I'm Not at this time ready to say that it is.
I agree i started as a mechanic with our company before going back and getting my engineering degree and I have seen alot of poor designs by somebody who would never have to work on them.
Rick
You are completely correct about everything you just said. Simple fix to this design is to put a ball bearing on each of the lobe and lubricate them with the engine oil. Just like a good after market Turbo would go from bushings that are subject to wear from side loads a radial bearing solves these problems and would keep the piston in its correct position preventing the gauling or spontanious welding affect. But as with everything that comes at a cost which some manfactuers do not want to pay for so they settle for the less exspensive model and take their chances. Which in this case might lead to more unhappy customer(rightfully so) if this proves to be a bad design. I'm Not at this time ready to say that it is.
Senior User
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 142
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Kwikkordead
I agree i started as a mechanic with our company before going back and getting my engineering degree and I have seen alot of poor designs by somebody who would never have to work on them.
Rick
You are completely correct about everything you just said. Simple fix to this design is to put a ball bearing on each of the lobe and lubricate them with the engine oil. Just like a good after market Turbo would go from bushings that are subject to wear from side loads a radial bearing solves these problems and would keep the piston in its correct position preventing the gauling or spontanious welding affect. But as with everything that comes at a cost which some manfactuers do not want to pay for so they settle for the less exspensive model and take their chances. Which in this case might lead to more unhappy customer(rightfully so) if this proves to be a bad design. I'm Not at this time ready to say that it is.
I agree i started as a mechanic with our company before going back and getting my engineering degree and I have seen alot of poor designs by somebody who would never have to work on them.
Rick
You are completely correct about everything you just said. Simple fix to this design is to put a ball bearing on each of the lobe and lubricate them with the engine oil. Just like a good after market Turbo would go from bushings that are subject to wear from side loads a radial bearing solves these problems and would keep the piston in its correct position preventing the gauling or spontanious welding affect. But as with everything that comes at a cost which some manfactuers do not want to pay for so they settle for the less exspensive model and take their chances. Which in this case might lead to more unhappy customer(rightfully so) if this proves to be a bad design. I'm Not at this time ready to say that it is.
I'll leave it up to Rick to say if his pump looks like a Vw or Audi pump from a TDI but from what I am seeing, and there are probably a ton of VW folks that never even reported their failures to NHSTA, let's assume, a generous 10%, the numbers of failed pumps is staggering.
VW and Audi tried, too, to sweep this under the rug as "misfueling" or "contaminated fuel", in the beginning, but by the time 2 years had gone by, with the help of the internet, they pretty much resigned themselves to just replacing the pumps under warranty, the frequency of failures, plus perhaps pressure from NHTSA, made them start honoring warranties.
I can imagine there are some heated conferences going on between Ford and Bosch right now, which weren't meant for our ears. What they come up with as a solution is anyone's guess. I do know that Bosch has had 3 "revisions" to their pumps, to make the design more resistant to US quality fuel, and more "robust". Problem is, the last revision went into effect in November of 2010... and, sadly, there are 2012's showing HPFP failures, still.... In my eyes, Bosch's revisions are just window dressing... the pump needs a complete redesign, it will never make 250k miles in current configuration, with current fuel here in the USA. I just don't believe that Bosch understands the American market, when it comes to diesels, expectations for mileage, how long the distances and mileages are here in the USA, or what that "Heavy Duty" logo means on the side of a Ford Truck... they just don't "get it" . Maybe they are stuck on 250,000 kilometers as a benchmark?
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From: herriman utah
maybe bosch is starting to view their diesel systems as 100k mile parts, the old vp44 on the 98-02 dodges was pretty much toast at 100-150k miles, the injectors on the 03-07 dodges were only rated to last 100k miles, noone was told those are $800 and injector to replace. hows a 5k repair bill at 150k miles grab ya?? even the old VE rotary pumps on the old 89-93 dodges were only expected to last a little over 150k miles.
isn't the common rail fuel systems simpler on the high pressure pump, one would think if the pump is merely tasked with providing high pressure diesel it would mean its design is much more simple than pumps that also controlled injection events.
isn't the common rail fuel systems simpler on the high pressure pump, one would think if the pump is merely tasked with providing high pressure diesel it would mean its design is much more simple than pumps that also controlled injection events.
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From: Isanti, MN
I'm really looking forward to seeing the pictures as well as reading PumpDoctor's thoughts...
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The Bosch CP4.2 pump is a simple machine. A shaft turns a two lobe cam that compresses two pistons contained in two cylinder bores 90 degrees apart. There is some other circuitry involved for pressure regulation but that does not involve the pressure generation side.
In comparing the pictures that are all over the internet of the Bosch pump in the VW, and after a phone conversation with biker99, it certainly appears that the pressure generating components and the cylinder bores are identical to the pump in the Ford.
When I disassembled the internals of the pump, removing the camshaft assembly resulted in the cam roller followers and their mounting saddles falling into the housing. The pistons, both sides were sitting at top dead center, would not move down on their own. They could be moved a bit by pushing down from the top but after a 1/4 inch or so they stopped moving. It required a socket of the correct diameter and an extension, driven by tapping hard with a 2 pound hammer to get the pistons out of the bores.
Pictures tomorrow if I get time...not home yet
Regards
In comparing the pictures that are all over the internet of the Bosch pump in the VW, and after a phone conversation with biker99, it certainly appears that the pressure generating components and the cylinder bores are identical to the pump in the Ford.
When I disassembled the internals of the pump, removing the camshaft assembly resulted in the cam roller followers and their mounting saddles falling into the housing. The pistons, both sides were sitting at top dead center, would not move down on their own. They could be moved a bit by pushing down from the top but after a 1/4 inch or so they stopped moving. It required a socket of the correct diameter and an extension, driven by tapping hard with a 2 pound hammer to get the pistons out of the bores.
Pictures tomorrow if I get time...not home yet
Regards
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From: herriman utah
I believe you're right about the simplicity, the old style injection pumps were much more complex. But as I understand it the old injection pumps didn't operate anywhere near the pressures these modern pumps do. 30,000 PSI is a lot of pressure.
I'm really looking forward to seeing the pictures as well as reading PumpDoctor's thoughts...
I'm really looking forward to seeing the pictures as well as reading PumpDoctor's thoughts...
that is very much correct, that is one of the reasons our light truck engines have increased in power SO much from say the mid 90's model diesel pickup engines. the higher the pressure the greater amount of atomized diesel can be put into the cylinder in a given injection event without adding duration to the injection event which would cause more smoke and likely higher EGT. the p7100 injection pump bosch made for the 94-97 model dodge cummins engines was by far the best injection pump they made for a pickup engine.
