building a 351w for the first time, i took the block to a machine shop and got a bid to stroke it out to a 408. im not too inclined on building motors and or parts for building motors, so i thought i would post on here to see if there is anything i should change or if it is over priced. any input would be much appreciated. thx.

LABOR
CLEAN AND CHECK BLOCK 45.00
BORE AND HONE BLOCK W/DECK PLATE 120.00
ALIGN-HONE BLOCK 175.00
DECK BLOCK 80.00
BALANCE ROTATING ASSEMBLY 150.00
ASSEMBLE ENGINE (LONG BLOCK) 350.00
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PARTS
408 ROTATING ASSEMBLY
4340 CRANKSHAFT
H-BEAM CONNECTING RODS
H SERIES MAIN BEARINGS
H SERIES ROD BEARINGS
C/M PISTON RINGS
FORGED PISTONS W/PINS AND LOCKS 1758.00
ARP FASTENERS
ENGINE BOLT KIT – HEAD BOLTS – MAIN STUDS 205.00
CAMSHAFT KIT
CUSTOM GROUND HYD. ROLLER CAMSHAFT
HYD. ROLLER LIFTERS
4340 PUSH RODS
TRUE ROLLER TIMING CHAIN
ALUMINUM ROLLER ROCKER ARMS 995.00
CNC CYLINDER HEADS COMPLETE 1550.00
CYLINDER HEADS COMPLETE 997.00

 

total 5078 not including engine assembly (long block)

 

You're definitely going all out. What is your intent with the build? For a street driver, your head bill seems a little overkill. But as the old saying goes, "speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"

 

definately rodding it, im not too concerned with the body just yet, that will come with time. plan on sand blasting the frame when i get home as i am deployed right now. i dropped the block off at the machine shop right before i left, told him to take his time on the build and he said he woud hang on to it for my seven month deployment. should have plenty of money when i get back to do as i please with the truck. there are two differet quotes on there for the heads, one for cnc and one for non cnc heads. he said the cnc ones were like 500 off. i just thought if i was going to do it might as well do it right! as for the price do you think it is reasonable?

 

Return on investment may be justified given that you are going to competitively race this vehicle...if not, you are spending a lot of money and giving up a lot of "streetability" for just some bragging rights. You can buy a lot of engine from various builders as a crate engine and save yourself $$$ in the process. A one-time hand-built engine from your local machine shop is probably the highest cost option on the table.

 

Overall, the list and prices look complete and the prices aren't too far out of whack at all. The shop rates on the machining services are almost exactly what my favorite machine shop charges and are pretty reasonable. The only thing that sticks out at me there is align honing the main saddles. It's (obviously) an expensive process and normally isn't necessary if the original main caps for the block are still present and in there correct locations. The only other things that would make it necessary would be spinning a main bearing in the block or seriously overheating. I've built quite a few engines and only had one engine that the main saddles were far enough out of true on to make an align hone necessary - and I opted to just scrap that block and find a different one. I guess the point is that it isn't something it's just a "given" to do like most of the rest of that stuff on your list. The machinist should check to see how straight they are and discuss it with you before making that determination.

While it certainly won't HURT anything, I also think you might be getting carried away a little bit on your rotating assembly selection. Unless you are planning to be racing or turning high RPMS on a regular basis, H-beam rods are overkill. I-beams like the stockers are good for 500 HP or better and 6000 RPM. I'm not sure what kind of crank or pistons that includes, but $1750 is a WHOLE lot of jack for a stroker rotating assembly. Do a little research at Ford Engine Kit - Ford 408 Stroker Kit, 351 Windsor Stroker for some comparison shopping. Unless you're racing, you don't NEED much more than a "street fighter" type kit.

Without brand names and model numbers, it's difficult to provide any feedback on the heads and valvetrain. I will say that price for heads is about the max for a top of the line head. Make sure that's what you're getting for that price.

Keep in mind that most reputable machine shops are pretty trustworthy and know they can't keep customers coming in the door if they have a bad reputation. It's in their best interests to make you happy. It's also in their best interests to make money. Find out exactly what parts will be included, do lots of research (or post a detailed list here), and analyze it carefully to make sure that you're going to end up with the engine you actually want and need instead of what the machinist says you need. They mostly build racing engines and sometimes tend to go overboard on street motors if they are allowed to. Compression ratio, camshaft characteristics, head size, etc. all have a major impact on how the engine will perform, how much and what kind of fuel it will use, and what it's like to drive. You need to be honest with yourself and the machinist about what you really want and make sure you put yourself right in the middle of any parts decisions. You're about to spend a whole lot of money. Make sure that you're happy with it!

 

I don't see anything here that's out of line for what you're getting. If you can get all that for less than $5500 ready to install, that's not bad, as long as you're comfortable with the competance of your machinist and his crew.

 

It doesn't look bad but I personally see a few possible issues.

ALUMINUM ROLLER ROCKER ARMS 995.00
The only way this price is even close to right is if they are shaft-mounted roller rockers and unless you are all out racing high rpms there is no need. This seems insane overall

CNC CYLINDER HEADS COMPLETE 1550.00
CYLINDER HEADS COMPLETE 997.00

You did not say what brand or casting but for the most part if these are new, name brand heads, and your not getting some super deal, then these heads are too small for a 408W. Remember with a 408W you are trying to support big block cubes through an SBF casting. Heads that are properly matched even to a street 408W(sub 6k rpms) will be something in the nature of a AFR 205, TFS HiPort, or bigger. This would put you in the $1800+ range for heads.

The 4340 crank and H-rods(unless you go forced induction) are both overkill for a stock 351W block as the block will crack before they do but not a huge deal just a place a some money could be saved if you wanted. The ~$400 you saved here could be moved to the heads and then you'd be maximizing your hp/dollar.

 

Yeah the $995 for aluminum roller rocker arms can't be right unless they have gold mixed in the mix LOL. Let us know what brand those cylinder heads are for that kind of money....If they are Pro-comp heads....run away! Or just tell them no thanks and put different heads on it. AFR 185 heads seem to do really well with 408 strokers, they are a little cheaper than the 205's but either would work well. Yeah like the other guys have said already, the forged crank and H-beam rods are a bit overkill if its never gonna see the drag strip. you could definitely save some money there. Keithcraft.com has some good numbers with the AFR 185 heads on 408 strokers

 

I am interested in your comment regarding Procomp...do you have any direct experience with Procomp heads or are you passing along an opinion from another? The reason I ask is because some time ago there were some rational concerns about these heads and then there were some significant changes made at the company which resolved those issues. Yet on occasion I still see people slam Procomp on various forums...

 

Yeah my brother inlaw bought those pro comp heads and because of a "flaw" in the head they put anifreeze into his oil pan, bearings etc. Had to get it rebuilt a 2nd time because of the heads. The shop that sold him the heads said it only happened maybe 1 in 40 sets of heads they sold....they gave him new heads bud didn't pay any of the 600 bucks he had to fork out to get the block rebuilt. He wound up selling the truck and engine a few weeks ago, its sad. Everyone says you get what you pay for, he payed 750 for those heads, it just sucks that you have to pay a 1000 or more for GOOD cylinder heads. If he had never bought those pro-comp heads, in the long run he would have never had to have sold his truck. He had spent his budget and when all that happened with the antifreeze money just wasn't there anymore. truck sat for about 2 years then he had to just sell it. The engine stayed at the machine shop till the guy that bought the truck went and picked it up. My brother inlaw was going to use the truck as a daily driver, he had the truck for about 20 years or so, like I said...sad

 

I thought the same thing, but I looked at it a couple times and I think the $995 is for the camshaft kit which would include everything in his list from

CAMSHAFT KIT
CUSTOM GROUND HYD. ROLLER CAMSHAFT
HYD. ROLLER LIFTERS
4340 PUSH RODS
TRUE ROLLER TIMING CHAIN
ALUMINUM ROLLER ROCKER ARMS 995.00

(I think... )

 

Yeah that would definitely make more sense

 

That is a bummer...any idea of how long ago that was? Procomps are supposed to have some of the best castings made today...they are the only manufacturer to my knowledge that uses injection techniques rather than just a molten aluminum pour. The heads that I have seen are far more dense and the aluminum smoother than any other cast aluminum head that I have seen...even the OEMs.

 

I'm not an engine builder but I have been out in the market recently.
I paid $2,000 for Summits Edelbrock 351W Top End kit & I bought a short block 351W for $500 & then had it assembled & installed - Grand total somewhere less than $3,500. Not sure it's a race machine but Edelbrock & Summits Dino testing put it purportedly at 400hp. Might be able to use
your saved money for extras - better brakes, Exhaust, distributor, etc.

Ben in Austin