why do the bigger trucks have those rims that clamp on is there a benefit to them?? do hub have to be changed to put on regular one piece wheels????

 

You are talking about "Dayton" wheels, vs. Budd.

I remember my dad saying he hated those. And with good reason, given that, yes, you have to change the hubs to install Budd wheels.

As for why such a beast exists, beats me, someone thought it was a good idea. I can't think of any benefit. Strength would seem to be compromised by the design, unsprung weight is higher, service is a pita--but there were millions served, so who knows.

Truck Wheels: Budd vs. Dayton - Ex Isle Forums

 

Many trucks had the dayton style wheel, and the real man-killers (literally) were the 3 piece design, where a guy used a tube in the tire, and a tube protector (forgot what it was called), and a bias ply tire..... ever try to put a 14 ply tire over the bead humps on a rim? The 3 piece design made it easy to put on, as the inside of the rim came apart, and the tire, tube and protector slid right on. Since tubless radial became the thing to have, the one piece dayton all but replaced the old 3 piece design, and those tires are soft enough to flex over the bead humps on the rim. From what I was told the early Budd wheels were trouble? Not sure why, cause the design is pretty much unchaged? Daytons are easy to unmount off of a truck, but getting them to run true involves some trial and error, and Budds will run cooler because of that. Hub pilot is far superior to either of these designs, but before the mid 90's a guy didn't see too many.

Rodney

 

This one is easy - weight. One an could mount a Dayton on the road, much harder with a Budd. Of course with 24 hour service, this is a mute point today.

Why also split rims - because one man, in the desert, or wherever could remove the tire from the rim with only the basics of tools, fix the tube and be on his way. Of course, with 24 hour service nowdays, this is also mute.

Go back 50 years ago, a lot of the rural roads were unpaved and most stores closed at 1pm on Saturday, some maybe 3pm if open at all on Saturday, and would not reopen until 8 or 9am on Monday. In fact, in many places this was the law (nicknamed the blue laws so to speak)

Gosh, I remember when 7-11 came into being, why it was open from 7am until 11p 6 days a week, then 7 days a week. Nowdays, in any place you can always find a 24 hour operation.

Given that, now you see why a single man, with the basic of tools required something that he could lift, take apart and repair unless of course he wanted to wait for a day and a half for a tire machine to become available again!

And yes, I am not PC correct, nor can be in this case, for this was a man's world at the time for the most part.

My how things change....

David

 

Early Budds were also of split design, known as widowmakers... Later came the split ring, then the Budd of today, which is a one piece unit. We have some of the widowmakers on a hay trailer made from a truck frame, trying to find replacement rims has been a trick. However, the Daytons are universal across the different manufacturers, not a certain lug count. Nowadays, everything is the same 10 lug design for the most part, but it wasn't always the case. The widowmakers are 6 lug design, GM used 5 lugs, Ford had both 5 and 6 it seems..

 

Dayton wheels were actually stronger than Budd wheels more so with the 6 spoke design
Trueing the Dayton wheels was not trial and error just simple knowledge of the job at hand

 

On my two medium duty trucks, the 1970 C600 has the Budds, while the 1985 International Cargostar has Daytons. Go figure.

Either rim though, from my non commercial, limited mileage point of view are fine. Now if we talk about cab accomodations, the Ford wins hands down for room and ease of entry.

David

 

International had used mostly Dayton wheels on all their medium duty trucks as long as I can remember and that's a long damn time somewhere in the '40s model years
Ford Dodge and Chevs used mostly Budd style wheels up to F-7s or 700s

Ford and most other truck makers have always had a superior cab design than International

 

Not that it much matters I guess, but it's actually the other way around. From the earliest days of Budd style disc wheels there have been "lock ring" designs used. This goes back to the last half of the 1920s. The "widowmaker", technically know as the Firestone RH-5°, didn't come on the market until the last half of the 1940s. It then, regrettably, was the dominant rim used up through the 1960s. The goverment and insurance industry, under recall threats, forced the manufacturers to stop producing it in the early 1970s.

Baker and the others are right that Daytons were used on bigger rigs for strength reasons. And because the driver could do service on the side of the road when needed. I've read that, for this last reason, there was an east coast bias toward Budd style and a west coast bias toward Dayton style. Makes sense. Try finding service on US 50 west of Eureka, NV, sometime!! It's the "loneliest road" for good reason. In those days the Lincoln Highway was the interstate. We're spoiled today. Stu

 

Dude, not to be rude...You don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Stay away from tires ....they will kill people like you.

Greg

 

Maybe you ought to let me know if you're ever going to read a thread, and I won't bother to reply, cause anything I say would be inferior to your thoughts. Granted I may not be a tire expert, but I normally take constructive critisism when it's offered. Maybe in all your wisdom you have something positive you can add?

Rodney

 

He wasn't totally wrong. Pretty easy to come in and put down someone, how about adding the info that he has wrong to help out, rather than put down someone for trying to help, no matter if what they said is right or wrong. This is a discussion, not an ego competition.

 

How would you know?
Everything you said was wrong too, except for fords having five and six lugs.

FYI ....From your post above..

"Early Budds were also of split design, known as widowmakers... Later came the split ring,"
Wrong, split ring 2 and 3 piece wheels came before the widowmaker (firestone rh5degree)

"then the Budd of today, which is a one piece unit."
Wrong...There are one piece, two piece and three piece, Budd wheels today.
The one piece being tubless, the two and three piece are both tube type split rims.

"However, the Daytons are universal across the different manufacturers"
Wrong...Daytons come in many different widths and sizes, and in one piece, two piece, and three piece wheels.

"Nowadays, everything is the same 10 lug design for the most part",
Wrong... there's six lug, five lug, eight lug, ten lug
all different widths, offsets, one piece two piece three piece etc...

"The widowmakers are 6 lug design"
The widowmakers came in five and six lug.

Hope this helps.

Greg

 

Rodney[/quote]
quote=Rodney R;9829645]Maybe you ought to let me know if you're ever going to read a thread, and I won't bother to reply, cause anything I say would be inferior to your thoughts. Granted I may not be a tire expert, but I normally take constructive critisism when it's offered. Maybe in all your wisdom you have something positive you can add?

Rodney[/quote]
Rodney,sorry if I came accross to harsh, there are alot of guys that get hurt and killed around tires that pretend to know what they are talking about, or think they do but really don't, its a serious deal. What if you told someone something you thought you knew, or pretended to know, and the person took your advice and got killed I can't tell you how many times over the 30 years I spent out in the field doing tires and had the resident tire expert approach me on a construction site and start telling me about him ,or his friend in the army or that works at the gas station how many lock rings they have had come off and narrowly miss taking thier head off, or it went through the roof of their shop. T
here is no excuse for that. If you Pretend to know what your doing in this buisness you will die, or worse live through it and wind up looking like a Halibut.

"Many trucks had the dayton style wheel, and the real man-killers (literally) were the 3 piece design,"
Nope Nothing wrong with the two three and three piece lockring type wheels as long as everythings is matched and in good shape and assembled and aired and seated correctly.by an experienced person.
"Hub pilot is far superior to either of these designs, but before the mid 90's a guy didn't see too many."
Hub pilots been around along time
Here is a couple pics of a two piece Hub Pilot Widowmaker of my 63 F600
I personaly dont think theres any advantage to a hub pilot.




"ever try to put a 14 ply tire over the bead humps on a rim? The 3 piece design made it easy to put on, as the inside of the rim came apart, and the tire, tube and protector slid right on"

Dunno what bead humps are, but if you were tring to bar a 20" tube type tire onto a one piece 22.5 wheel your lucky you never got it mounted.

On a three piece wheel the inside of the wheel does not come apart the lockring and flange ring come off.

"Since tubless radial became the thing to have, the one piece dayton all but replaced th old three piece design".

Not true, still plenty of two and three piece daytons running out there.

" Daytons are easy to unmount off of a truck,"

When unbolting the rears don't get you face in front of the clamps, run the nuts off a few threads then smack the outer wheel a sledge to get the clamps to pop make sure the clamps are all loose before taking the nuts off.
this is the safe way to do it.

I am not encouraging anyone to do tire work, I put that up there in case someone had to pull a wheel to work on their truck.


" but getting them to run true involves some trial and error, and Budds will run cooler because of that."

This is true if you have no experience.
If the wheels are wobbling they will generate heat

Greg

 

If I may reinsert myself back into this. I agree with everything Greg says about safety. We're talking caged animals here. I do a lot of research for guys who are trying to find alternative wheels to replace their widowmakers and lock ring wheels. I've gotta be real careful to consider all the variables before opening my yap. Sometimes guys just want to replace a broken lock ring. That scares the stink outta me because all the rings are designed to work with their matching rims. Mix-matching rims and rings will ruin you day too, as Greg described. The books even warn against mixing different widths of the same design. After 50 or more years, finding a ring to match a rim isn't gonna happen.

Greg's hub piloted 6 lug x 8.75" pattern widowmakers are some that have no easy remedy. Just as hard are the 5 lug x 8" pattern. The hub piloted design has been around since the 1930s and was used heavily by the Motor Wheel Corporation on Chevies in a 10 lug x 7.25" pattern. GMC and REO in the 1940s are the first I've found that used it on a 5 lug x 8" pattern. Studebaker went to this in 1949, then Ford went to it in the 1960s. The Studebakers and Fords are the worst to offer help with because of the widowmaker/hub piloted/5 lug x 8" combo. The 6 lug x 8.75" are just as hard. I've found record that Motor Wheel Corporation made 5 x 8" hub piloted 22.5s in the late '50s/'60s, but have only seen a couple pictures and one catalog reference of it. The pictures I've seen are on Studebakers, and the catalog reference shows they were used by Divco. Those are pretty darn slim donor populations. I've also got catalog references to Budd having made 6 x 8.75" pattern hub piloted 22.5s, but don't know what models/years to suggest as donors. Does anybody have record of Ford or Dodge offering either 5 x 8" or 6 x 8.75" tubeless 22.5s, and if so, on what models/range of years?

I don't know who the member was, but there was at least one old thread devoted to the conversion of a truck from a hub piloted to stud piloted mounting. If anybody has successfully done that I'd like to hear more about it. I know in theory what machine work would be required on the hubs to do it, but that's not the same as actually having done it. Stu