Two of the ambulance manufacturers around here have told a few of the agencies here that Ford is considering dropping the ambulances. They were told that there are '15s in production but more than likely will not be '16s... One of the reps stated the package only represents only 2% of all of the Super Duty market. So that it wouldn't be that big of a loss for them. Funny thing though. Ram has now offered an ambulance package on their 3500 now instead of just the 4500 and 5500 chassis. GM is coming on strong in the northern part of the state now. Many, like us are going to the medium duty market. However, I think we are through with Freightliners fro a while, as we are now putting out bids for Kenworths. FL has just about out priced themselves now. It bothers me that Ford is getting out. I believe they represent the toughness of these trucks. Most go from cold to wide open in a matter of seconds, but the idling is getting to these trucks. It doesn't bother the FLs hardly at all. But I see the other side of the it too. They risk getting a bad rep because of the trucks having to be repaired(aka 6.0s) It would be a shame to see them leave, but they did the Crown Vic the same way only to replace it with a different model.

 

In reading here on FTE, I thought there had been nothing but problems and disappointment in the Ford ambulance product. Sensor breaking all the time and engines needing to be replaced issues. Just from reading here, the Ford product sounded unreliable.

 

Yea, it is kind of sad.

The idling is bad and what makes it worse is trying to settle the debate.

Drivers need to adapt and turn the engines off, shore power hooked up.

Wha say you? Can you give us your opinion on whether the idling is absolutely non negotiable? I work at hospitals all over the country and those ambulance s sit and idle hours, nobody in sight. I see the shore power lines lying there doing nothing.

 

I've thought about the things that even I've written here about the trouble with the med units. I guess in the grand scheme of things, it seems like just some of the units are snake bit. Ours have performed well when they were running. The 6.7L that we've had so much trouble with is just that unit 'mostly'. Now on its third engine and 3 EGT sensors. The others have just had 2 more EGT sensors between them. They have performed MUCH better than the 6.4s in the emergency setting.
As far as the idling, for YEARS we were all taught to let the trucks idle at the hospital to let the turbos cool so you won't have the coking of the oil. We do shut them down at the stations of course, but most will leave them running at the ERs due to having to decon the rears of the trucks and being able to see inside. some of this has been curbed due to LED lights that we can now just leave on the lights while cleaning without the fear of draining the batteries. We NEVER turn them off at the scenes for any reason.
Todays oils are much better at not coking, but you just don't have any of the oil companies saying anything to back this up like they did to put the diesels down. I agree that idling these trucks are very bad for them in many ways, from the sensors to DPFs to the extra regens.
I have from time to time gotten really ill with these trucks, because I expected more. What is ironic is the Freightliners have no problem idling at all, even the ones with the DPFs on. I just wonder if Ford made the right decision with regen process instead of using a 9th injector. I wonder if that is the root of the problem somehow? I have also praised these trucks as I am amazed at how well they perform under extreme conditions and with a multitude of drivers. Just hate to see them go away after my 27 years in the business.

 

Why not equip them with auxiliary power units like the over the road trucks use to cut out all the idle time?

 

Probably trying to limit their liability exposure in light of the NHTSA investigation into the EGT sensors.

 

i wish we had 6.7's in our fleet. my company uses E-450's and slowly but surely there all being switched to gassers when they buy a new truck..

 

Personal opinion. Not enough sales to justify the headache of dealing with selling ambulances. Same thing happened with the Crown Vic. Not enough sales to continue to upgrade the crown vic to modern times. THe CVPI was basically the same car for the past 10 years of its life. VERY VERY few changes were made to that platform.

Just like Ford cancelled the Excursion - which I think was was a mistake. A Super Duty based SUV with a diesel engine option was awesome. I do miss mine. Not enough units were being sold...

Now of course, Ford realized the error of its ways and now has a SUV with a police package (Explorer) and the Taurus is used as well.

Final thought/opinion - With Diesel around 30% more expensive that regular fuel it is going to be harder and harder for most companies to justify a diesel engine over a gas one. I really disliked the gas engine in the Uhaul I drove from Miami to Alaska, but it did get the job done. Now that you do less damage to gas engine idling it than you do to a diesel engine, I can see the rationale behind going to gas motors in Ambulances. Fire Engine trucks will still need diesel engines for the time being, but with OTR trucks going to Natural Gas motors it is only a matter of time before those are converted over too.

All this can change in a new york second if the market shifts though. We've seen it before...

 

Fire service is seeing the same on brush units. Nothing more scary than having your brush truck motor decide to shut down over a sensor when you and your crew are trying to haul tail out of a tight spot while on a Wildland fire.
Our dept is building a 550 with the v-10 cause of the issues other Dept's are having with idle times and sensors on diesel emission equipped rigs.

This is larger than just ambulances. Tow trucks, fire service, etc.

 

Gas engines are just better suited to the duty cycles of an ambulance than modern diesels are. Maybe in 10 or so years when the emissions technology gets shaken out better.

 

I have discussed this several times with drivers of those vehicles.
Here are the reasons that I've heard of why diesel emergency vehicles are favoured over gas:
And my comments. Your opinion may differ.

-Better at idling.
Better??? This one always baffles me, does a gas engine not idle just as good as a diesel? They even make better heat without high idling!

-Less fuel used to idle.
OK sure, but is it really more economical?

-More reliable.
Is it really more reliable? Does it make any sense to use a diesel vehicle for short bursts of activity? Who would actually think a diesel is meant for, or would perform well, in this usage?

-Better acceleration.
OK sure, some diesels can accelerate better than some gas engines, but I don't think the difference directly translates into saved lives, or reduced equipment costs.

-Safer.
Diesel is safer because gasoline can more easily combust. This might be true, but I think the amount of EMT's burned in a gasoline fire that would have been spared, if only they were covered in burning diesel fuel, is a very very small number. This argument makes better sense for boats, where gasoline vapour can collect in the hull and create an explosion hazard. And we still have lots of gasoline inboard boats.

-Better fuel economy.
I think it's been years already, where diesel fuel is expensive enough to remove any real benefit.

-We like it.
Yup the fire and EMT guys love the diesels. Lots of times, even if a gas vehicle will outperform, and outlast a diesel, they will bombard you by any argument thinkable, to tell you why they need diesel power, and make you feel like you're killing someone by suggesting different.

My opinion, is that since a fire/EMT vehicle is usually publicly funded, the vehicle should be as affordable, and reliable, as possible. These guys get paid to do a job, if part of that job is "putting up with" a high revving gasoline beast, so be it. If I can't see a real reason why something would benefit them, why pay for it? Money spent on a diesel vehicle could go a longer way spent on other things. A lot of the guys I know working in this field, like many other workers in almost ANY field, are always juggling budgets and sacrificing to make things work.
I see zero reasons why the public should pay for a diesel vehicle because workers "like it better".
Especially in the era we live in right now, idling for extended periods where power is available is a waste, nothing more.
Of course, on site, and in some situations, idling is necessary, but a gasoline engine can handle idling just fine.

Is there any single reason anyone can think of where a diesel ambulance is a necessity rather than just personal preference?

With someones personal truck, who cares if they drive it to the store and run it 10 minutes a day and it dies, that's their cost and problem. But for vehicles that everyone pays for, what do we get back in terms of department performance, for that cost?
As said above in another post, 3 engine failures! Is there a reason why a gasoline engine couldn't do the work of a 6.7?
3 engines will buy a lot of gasoline!

 

Parkland - I do agree with most of what you posted. And with today's higher HP/TQ gassers out there for an ambulance they would be fine.

One things that is important for some is also range. If a gas motor is getting 6 where a diesel is getting 10 - A 30 gal. tank goes 300 miles and the gas one 180 miles. Our rules are at half tank you better be looking to fill up - so every 90 miles vs. every 150 miles.

3 Motors in this case I believe were on Ford's dime... Not the taxpayers. And that was one ambulance. The county I work for decided to get GAS trucks to replace their diesels, because they were cheaper. The diesel ones were all 12+ years old and the bodies beat to death. The news ones within a year were ALL getting new motors. THe idling in the heat made the motors sludge buckets. They even tried to do 2k miles oil changes. They ended up getting the manufacturer to buy them back... A new motor every year per vehicle adds up.

The gas vs. diesel argument is slowly tipping to gas - unless you haul heavy.

 

Monty, funny thing is, if the epa would allow emissions exempt status for emergency vehicles this conversation would never had happened.

10 years ago and earlier diesels just were simpler engines and lasted a long time. Emissions regs have consistently ramped up changing the deal all together.

I know one thing, gas easily does the job and there's nothing wrong with that. Things are different now.

 

I agree. The county next to us has bought 4 new med units within the last 8 months and they were all gas engines. The employees hated them due to being slower(not always a bad thing) and then they started having cooling problems back in the August heat. One of the trucks was outfitted with an electric fan at 19k miles and it did marginally better. And Dak hit the nail on the head with the fuel mileage. The gassers suck. Another thing that has caused some concern is most services are buying the larger boxes(patient compartment) and that is causing the units to be more sluggish and more thirsty. The bigger boxes also put more wind drag on the truck and they weigh considerably more than the standard boxes. The reason for the larger boxes is that the medics can stand upright in the back when needed, more storage cabinets, more area for the larger a/c units, fluid warmers, refrigerators and more interior room so the patients do not get as claustrophobic. YES, we get complaints about things like that! That is another reason that our diesels idle so much is to provide power for all of these items. The hospitals will not run electric shore lines out into the ambulance bays/parking areas to plug the units up. I do agree that gas engines have improved GREATLY since I have been in this business. Talking about mileage, with the gassers, we can't do our out of town transfers with them due to not having the comfort of the transport range as was stated. Some of our trips to the burn units are 90 miles to one and almost 170 to the other. So that is a great concern as well. You just can't stop for fuel during an emergent burn or cardiac transfer. I'm not sure what the answer is, but most of the power & phone companies have now gone to gassers as well.

 

That's for sure. Our 7.3's are still getting the job done.

The main reason for diesels still being popular in the fire service is the large difference in TOS (time on scene).