Small or Large Dealerships
#16
09-03-2014, 12:22 PM
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#17
09-03-2014, 05:29 PM
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This site gives a detailed explanation, although I believe their statement that it should be excluded from the negotiation is an incorrect statement.
What Is Dealer Holdback? on Edmunds.com
The simplified answer is that it's profit buried in the invoice price. It's listed on the invoice.
A couple of other things to consider:
1) You're not negotiating the price of the truck, or how much they allow you on trade. You're negotiating the difference you have to pay. Some dealers will want to go wholesale to wholesale, others will want to claim they sold you the truck at full retail, but will inflate the heck out of your trade. The bottom line number you want to be discussing is the amount you will have to put with your trade to get you OUT THE DOOR with your new truck. Make sure you get an answer up front on all of the fees, etc.
2) In addition to invoice price and holdback, there are other dealer incentives that you have NO WAY of finding out, but they can help you. I got an additional $1000 off my wife's Subaru several years ago, because I caught the dealership when they needed to sell one more car that day to make a sales incentive. The wider you cast your net, the more chance you have of finding one of those.
3) More dealers are doing the "bottom line pricing" trick, which isn't bad overall, as they tend to put a decent price on the vehicle. Then they'll tell you that they don't negotiate. That's BS. The negotiation point then becomes how much they'll put into your trade, and if they really want to make the sale, they'll put more into your trade than what it's really worth, which ends up being them cutting deeper into their "bottom line price." That's why you want to stick with point #1. You don't care how they get to the number, the end result you're looking for is the smallest amount you have to write a check for/finance, on top of your trade, to get you the truck you want.
What Is Dealer Holdback? on Edmunds.com
The simplified answer is that it's profit buried in the invoice price. It's listed on the invoice.
A couple of other things to consider:
1) You're not negotiating the price of the truck, or how much they allow you on trade. You're negotiating the difference you have to pay. Some dealers will want to go wholesale to wholesale, others will want to claim they sold you the truck at full retail, but will inflate the heck out of your trade. The bottom line number you want to be discussing is the amount you will have to put with your trade to get you OUT THE DOOR with your new truck. Make sure you get an answer up front on all of the fees, etc.
2) In addition to invoice price and holdback, there are other dealer incentives that you have NO WAY of finding out, but they can help you. I got an additional $1000 off my wife's Subaru several years ago, because I caught the dealership when they needed to sell one more car that day to make a sales incentive. The wider you cast your net, the more chance you have of finding one of those.
3) More dealers are doing the "bottom line pricing" trick, which isn't bad overall, as they tend to put a decent price on the vehicle. Then they'll tell you that they don't negotiate. That's BS. The negotiation point then becomes how much they'll put into your trade, and if they really want to make the sale, they'll put more into your trade than what it's really worth, which ends up being them cutting deeper into their "bottom line price." That's why you want to stick with point #1. You don't care how they get to the number, the end result you're looking for is the smallest amount you have to write a check for/finance, on top of your trade, to get you the truck you want.
#18
09-03-2014, 07:03 PM
I've been in many aspects of the car biz a long time including Ford sales. Dubious advice here, negotiation is about information, go in as prepared as you can be and be smart with information. This is how you control the conversation.
I'm going to give more information then I should, so listen up
Know what you want going in. If you need to visit a dealership to decide what you want then do so, but you need to separate the buying trip from the browsing trip. For this task a larger dealership is better, more inventory to look at.
Browsing trips also give you a chance to choose your dealership and your salesperson. A good salesperson is very important, do what you can to choose who you deal with, you want a pro, it's helpful. Dealerships have systems of what salesperson gets what customer. Bypass this by asking for service/parts, then look around for a seemingly mature, well dressed, informed salesperson, say hi and ask for a card. Do not, make contact with more then one salesperson at the same dealership. Many make the mistake of trying to play one off the other, this backfires as it puts you in the no mans land of a split deal. Make it clear you want to deal with that salesperson and only that salesperson, if another approaches refuse to talk to him unless your salesperson makes the introduction. Be honest and polite with them, but keep your information to yourself until it benefits you for them to know.
In this case make it clear right away that you intend to buy a new truck, that you intend to finance with the dealership(true or not) and that you have a trade. Make no attempt to negotiate the price of the truck or even worse payment, until the end. Price is what it is, and payment is just math.
When it's time to buy, better to go end of the day, end of the month. This is when they are most needy for sales numbers.
Once you have chosen your dealership, salesperson, and truck, then the first step in negotiation is your trade, another place a large dealership is better. Also at this point go ahead and fill out a credit application, they need to know that you can buy and it says your serious not jerking them around. Do not move on until you have a fair price for your trade in. Once you have a good number on your trade in you have the upper hand. They are more likely to give you a good number if they think they can make money in other places of the deal, financing, price, etc. this is why you lead them on with those factors.
Next be straight forward and fair on the new pricing, and again do not talk payment or financing. know as best you can what the invoice numbers are, if you can get an X deal number do so. Tell them you'll let them make some money here, you are paying for a service. This is true, make it so, just don't overpay, it's like tipping. A good dealership at this point will grab the actual invoice, and approach with what's often called a cost plus approach. "this is invoice, this is holdback, this is rebate, this is our overhead, this is what I(salesperson) make, etc. added up we think a fair price is X."
Then the back in of the deal, you'll get the best financing with Ford, let them get this for you, it's profit for them that doesn't cost you as long a you don't let them stick you with any APR or fees over what you qualify for and no extras unless you know you want them. This is the time to talk payment and give them the last piece of information, what you owe on your trade.
I'm going to give more information then I should, so listen up
Know what you want going in. If you need to visit a dealership to decide what you want then do so, but you need to separate the buying trip from the browsing trip. For this task a larger dealership is better, more inventory to look at.
Browsing trips also give you a chance to choose your dealership and your salesperson. A good salesperson is very important, do what you can to choose who you deal with, you want a pro, it's helpful. Dealerships have systems of what salesperson gets what customer. Bypass this by asking for service/parts, then look around for a seemingly mature, well dressed, informed salesperson, say hi and ask for a card. Do not, make contact with more then one salesperson at the same dealership. Many make the mistake of trying to play one off the other, this backfires as it puts you in the no mans land of a split deal. Make it clear you want to deal with that salesperson and only that salesperson, if another approaches refuse to talk to him unless your salesperson makes the introduction. Be honest and polite with them, but keep your information to yourself until it benefits you for them to know.
In this case make it clear right away that you intend to buy a new truck, that you intend to finance with the dealership(true or not) and that you have a trade. Make no attempt to negotiate the price of the truck or even worse payment, until the end. Price is what it is, and payment is just math.
When it's time to buy, better to go end of the day, end of the month. This is when they are most needy for sales numbers.
Once you have chosen your dealership, salesperson, and truck, then the first step in negotiation is your trade, another place a large dealership is better. Also at this point go ahead and fill out a credit application, they need to know that you can buy and it says your serious not jerking them around. Do not move on until you have a fair price for your trade in. Once you have a good number on your trade in you have the upper hand. They are more likely to give you a good number if they think they can make money in other places of the deal, financing, price, etc. this is why you lead them on with those factors.
Next be straight forward and fair on the new pricing, and again do not talk payment or financing. know as best you can what the invoice numbers are, if you can get an X deal number do so. Tell them you'll let them make some money here, you are paying for a service. This is true, make it so, just don't overpay, it's like tipping. A good dealership at this point will grab the actual invoice, and approach with what's often called a cost plus approach. "this is invoice, this is holdback, this is rebate, this is our overhead, this is what I(salesperson) make, etc. added up we think a fair price is X."
Then the back in of the deal, you'll get the best financing with Ford, let them get this for you, it's profit for them that doesn't cost you as long a you don't let them stick you with any APR or fees over what you qualify for and no extras unless you know you want them. This is the time to talk payment and give them the last piece of information, what you owe on your trade.
#20
09-03-2014, 08:48 PM
My 2014 250 also have a 100000km warranty bumper to bumper with 12 free oil changes, yearly tire rotation. This was from a large dealership. Also won a prize.
#21
09-04-2014, 10:46 AM
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#23
09-04-2014, 10:53 AM
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I've been in many aspects of the car biz a long time including Ford sales. Dubious advice here, negotiation is about information, go in as prepared as you can be and be smart with information. This is how you control the conversation.
I'm going to give more information then I should, so listen up
Know what you want going in. If you need to visit a dealership to decide what you want then do so, but you need to separate the buying trip from the browsing trip. For this task a larger dealership is better, more inventory to look at.
Browsing trips also give you a chance to choose your dealership and your salesperson. A good salesperson is very important, do what you can to choose who you deal with, you want a pro, it's helpful. Dealerships have systems of what salesperson gets what customer. Bypass this by asking for service/parts, then look around for a seemingly mature, well dressed, informed salesperson, say hi and ask for a card. Do not, make contact with more then one salesperson at the same dealership. Many make the mistake of trying to play one off the other, this backfires as it puts you in the no mans land of a split deal. Make it clear you want to deal with that salesperson and only that salesperson, if another approaches refuse to talk to him unless your salesperson makes the introduction. Be honest and polite with them, but keep your information to yourself until it benefits you for them to know.
In this case make it clear right away that you intend to buy a new truck, that you intend to finance with the dealership(true or not) and that you have a trade. Make no attempt to negotiate the price of the truck or even worse payment, until the end. Price is what it is, and payment is just math.
When it's time to buy, better to go end of the day, end of the month. This is when they are most needy for sales numbers.
Once you have chosen your dealership, salesperson, and truck, then the first step in negotiation is your trade, another place a large dealership is better. Also at this point go ahead and fill out a credit application, they need to know that you can buy and it says your serious not jerking them around. Do not move on until you have a fair price for your trade in. Once you have a good number on your trade in you have the upper hand. They are more likely to give you a good number if they think they can make money in other places of the deal, financing, price, etc. this is why you lead them on with those factors.
Next be straight forward and fair on the new pricing, and again do not talk payment or financing. know as best you can what the invoice numbers are, if you can get an X deal number do so. Tell them you'll let them make some money here, you are paying for a service. This is true, make it so, just don't overpay, it's like tipping. A good dealership at this point will grab the actual invoice, and approach with what's often called a cost plus approach. "this is invoice, this is holdback, this is rebate, this is our overhead, this is what I(salesperson) make, etc. added up we think a fair price is X."
Then the back in of the deal, you'll get the best financing with Ford, let them get this for you, it's profit for them that doesn't cost you as long a you don't let them stick you with any APR or fees over what you qualify for and no extras unless you know you want them. This is the time to talk payment and give them the last piece of information, what you owe on your trade.
I'm going to give more information then I should, so listen up
Know what you want going in. If you need to visit a dealership to decide what you want then do so, but you need to separate the buying trip from the browsing trip. For this task a larger dealership is better, more inventory to look at.
Browsing trips also give you a chance to choose your dealership and your salesperson. A good salesperson is very important, do what you can to choose who you deal with, you want a pro, it's helpful. Dealerships have systems of what salesperson gets what customer. Bypass this by asking for service/parts, then look around for a seemingly mature, well dressed, informed salesperson, say hi and ask for a card. Do not, make contact with more then one salesperson at the same dealership. Many make the mistake of trying to play one off the other, this backfires as it puts you in the no mans land of a split deal. Make it clear you want to deal with that salesperson and only that salesperson, if another approaches refuse to talk to him unless your salesperson makes the introduction. Be honest and polite with them, but keep your information to yourself until it benefits you for them to know.
In this case make it clear right away that you intend to buy a new truck, that you intend to finance with the dealership(true or not) and that you have a trade. Make no attempt to negotiate the price of the truck or even worse payment, until the end. Price is what it is, and payment is just math.
When it's time to buy, better to go end of the day, end of the month. This is when they are most needy for sales numbers.
Once you have chosen your dealership, salesperson, and truck, then the first step in negotiation is your trade, another place a large dealership is better. Also at this point go ahead and fill out a credit application, they need to know that you can buy and it says your serious not jerking them around. Do not move on until you have a fair price for your trade in. Once you have a good number on your trade in you have the upper hand. They are more likely to give you a good number if they think they can make money in other places of the deal, financing, price, etc. this is why you lead them on with those factors.
Next be straight forward and fair on the new pricing, and again do not talk payment or financing. know as best you can what the invoice numbers are, if you can get an X deal number do so. Tell them you'll let them make some money here, you are paying for a service. This is true, make it so, just don't overpay, it's like tipping. A good dealership at this point will grab the actual invoice, and approach with what's often called a cost plus approach. "this is invoice, this is holdback, this is rebate, this is our overhead, this is what I(salesperson) make, etc. added up we think a fair price is X."
Then the back in of the deal, you'll get the best financing with Ford, let them get this for you, it's profit for them that doesn't cost you as long a you don't let them stick you with any APR or fees over what you qualify for and no extras unless you know you want them. This is the time to talk payment and give them the last piece of information, what you owe on your trade.
#24
09-04-2014, 12:17 PM
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I've been in many aspects of the car biz a long time including Ford sales. Dubious advice here, negotiation is about information, go in as prepared as you can be and be smart with information. This is how you control the conversation. ....
Then the back in of the deal, you'll get the best financing with Ford, let them get this for you, it's profit for them that doesn't cost you as long a you don't let them stick you with any APR or fees over what you qualify for and no extras unless you know you want them. This is the time to talk payment and give them the last piece of information, what you owe on your trade.
Then the back in of the deal, you'll get the best financing with Ford, let them get this for you, it's profit for them that doesn't cost you as long a you don't let them stick you with any APR or fees over what you qualify for and no extras unless you know you want them. This is the time to talk payment and give them the last piece of information, what you owe on your trade.
The details provided above are one approach, although certainly not the only approach to negotiating a good deal, and I won't waste time debating preferences, or whose approach is best. The intent of my previous comments was only to help the OP gather the best information. Good negotiating is a skill that is not easily taught on a forum.
I will take exception to the statement "you'll get the best financing from Ford..." as this is not by any means a universal truth, and is just one other cost to be negotiated. While it is true that you can often get good interest rates from Ford, you can also get good, or better rates from your local credit union. My credit union actually had an offer that I've taken advantage of for over 20 years, that they would beat by a quarter point the best rate I could find (except for incentive rates, such as 0% that the dealership will offer). In instances where they offer a rebate OR special financing, you should take the time to do the math to determine whether the special financing beats regular financing from your CU plus the rebate. In all of my calculations it did not.
Right now, Ford is offering an additional rebate if you finance with Ford. This can be a game changer, however, if you are loyal to your CU (I am), or if you are a cash buyer, you can still get this rebate by financing with Ford (minimum of $7k borrowed), then paying off the note or refinancing with your bank of choice as soon as possible.
Bottom line: what is a GOOD deal is always changing, there are no hard and fast rules. As stated above, be informed and you will almost always get a good deal.
#25
09-04-2014, 12:40 PM
In my experience the smaller dealer is better to deal with and provides a better deal. I have walked out of a larger dealership before (dochebags) and went to smaller one to buy my truck.(got a much better deal too) Unfortunatly small dealers are going to end up getting rare because Ford (and other car companies) have done their best to run the little guy out. Case in point the small family owned dealership I bought my truck from was closed down by Ford. They went selling used for a while until they were finally forced into selling out by a local large dealer which sells every brand under the sun.
#26
09-04-2014, 05:29 PM
I will take exception to the statement "you'll get the best financing from Ford..." as this is not by any means a universal truth, and is just one other cost to be negotiated. While it is true that you can often get good interest rates from Ford, you can also get good, or better rates from your local credit union. My credit union actually had an offer that I've taken advantage of for over 20 years, that they would beat by a quarter point the best rate I could find (except for incentive rates, such as 0% that the dealership will offer). In instances where they offer a rebate OR special financing, you should take the time to do the math to determine whether the special financing beats regular financing from your CU plus the rebate. In all of my calculations it did not.
Right now, Ford is offering an additional rebate if you finance with Ford. This can be a game changer, however, if you are loyal to your CU (I am), or if you are a cash buyer, you can still get this rebate by financing with Ford (minimum of $7k borrowed), then paying off the note or refinancing with your bank of choice as soon as possible.
Right now, Ford is offering an additional rebate if you finance with Ford. This can be a game changer, however, if you are loyal to your CU (I am), or if you are a cash buyer, you can still get this rebate by financing with Ford (minimum of $7k borrowed), then paying off the note or refinancing with your bank of choice as soon as possible.
#27
09-04-2014, 11:05 PM
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#28
09-05-2014, 11:03 AM
I have bought from a dealer a few times(new and used), but I prefer to buy from an individual. The price is better, I don't care about warranties, don't have to listen to a salesman that couldn't even tell me the engine size quote stuff out of a brochure like he knows what he is talking about, etc, and I would rather the money go in a local person's pocket.
#29
09-05-2014, 03:03 PM
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