Steering slop greatly improved!
#1
Steering slop greatly improved!
Don't know exactly why it took me so long. With 228K miles on the truck, the steering has become progressively sloppy over the last 20K miles, and I had begun to feel some "jitteryness" in the front end on bumpy roads.
Sooo... yesterday evening, I "proactively" replaced the inner and outer tie-rods on both sides, as well as the sway bar drop links on both sides. I had debated about the sway bar bushings, and will now be taking care of those by Thanksgiving just to complete the front end work (ball joints have all been done within the last 50-70K miles).
Parts... I went back with Napa Chassis parts due to good reports I had found here and elsewhere prior to the purchase. I also got a KILLER deal when I purchased them... roughly $100 discount just because I asked for one!! I re-used the OEM adjusting sleeves, though (would not do that again).
Sticky points in the process... Because of some obvious differences in machining tolerances between the Napa Chassis parts and the OEM adjusting sleeves, it was a real booger putting it all back together. The sleeves diameter was just a tad smaller than the OD machining on the threaded end of the Napa parts. I did not get anything cross-threaded, but it was just a tough time getting them together, especially on the passenger side. Overall, hindsight tells me I should have bitten the bullet and just bought the Napa adjusting sleeves to match their tie-rods, but it was too late last night to make that adjustment in my plans, and it would not have worked anyway because of my travel schedule for this week. It was all I could do to just get everything together and drop the truck off at my tire shop so they can take care of the alignment today for my pending road trips this week.
OBSERVATIONS... at LEAST 50% of my steering slop is completely gone, and the jittery feeling while driving over rough roads is completely gone, and those benefits are WITHOUT even replacing the sway bar bushings. I won't know the final degree of improvement until I get the truck back this evening from the alignment shop. BUT, I am thus far very pleased with the increased steering sensitivity and stability.
Next Steps...
- I'll be ordering the Energy Suspension sway bar bushings to install over Thanksgiving.
- Also, I am getting both front tires replaced today due to the cupping which had taken place due to the suspension sloppiness. They were also getting pretty low on tread depth anyway, and I was not comfortable running into the winter with as little tread as I had. The back tires are only about 18 months old (roughly 30K miles on them), and they have at least half the tread depth remaining, so they'll go on front with the new tires on back.
- When the new bushing kits arrives, I'll be installing the new drop link bushings into the links I removed from my truck and have the old bushings pressed out and the new ones put in. Then I'll put those links back on the truck so that I have ES bushings all the way around my front end. The new links I put on last night will then move to my Excursion (assuming that fitment is the same since they are both 2WD vehicles). If I find that the fitment is different, I might just take the new links back to Napa.
- I'm going to see if I can make any additional improvements by adjusting the steering box, but will be very careful to limit any adjustments there to minimize any chances of increasing the wear in the OEM box.
RECOMMENDATIONS... If ...
1) you can proactively swing the cash,
2) have relatively high miles (>200,000),
3) have not yet replaced any of these components, AND
4) have sloppy steering....
... THEN I would highly recommend making the part swaps with new components for a greatly improved ride and handling.
Sooo... yesterday evening, I "proactively" replaced the inner and outer tie-rods on both sides, as well as the sway bar drop links on both sides. I had debated about the sway bar bushings, and will now be taking care of those by Thanksgiving just to complete the front end work (ball joints have all been done within the last 50-70K miles).
Parts... I went back with Napa Chassis parts due to good reports I had found here and elsewhere prior to the purchase. I also got a KILLER deal when I purchased them... roughly $100 discount just because I asked for one!! I re-used the OEM adjusting sleeves, though (would not do that again).
Sticky points in the process... Because of some obvious differences in machining tolerances between the Napa Chassis parts and the OEM adjusting sleeves, it was a real booger putting it all back together. The sleeves diameter was just a tad smaller than the OD machining on the threaded end of the Napa parts. I did not get anything cross-threaded, but it was just a tough time getting them together, especially on the passenger side. Overall, hindsight tells me I should have bitten the bullet and just bought the Napa adjusting sleeves to match their tie-rods, but it was too late last night to make that adjustment in my plans, and it would not have worked anyway because of my travel schedule for this week. It was all I could do to just get everything together and drop the truck off at my tire shop so they can take care of the alignment today for my pending road trips this week.
OBSERVATIONS... at LEAST 50% of my steering slop is completely gone, and the jittery feeling while driving over rough roads is completely gone, and those benefits are WITHOUT even replacing the sway bar bushings. I won't know the final degree of improvement until I get the truck back this evening from the alignment shop. BUT, I am thus far very pleased with the increased steering sensitivity and stability.
Next Steps...
- I'll be ordering the Energy Suspension sway bar bushings to install over Thanksgiving.
- Also, I am getting both front tires replaced today due to the cupping which had taken place due to the suspension sloppiness. They were also getting pretty low on tread depth anyway, and I was not comfortable running into the winter with as little tread as I had. The back tires are only about 18 months old (roughly 30K miles on them), and they have at least half the tread depth remaining, so they'll go on front with the new tires on back.
- When the new bushing kits arrives, I'll be installing the new drop link bushings into the links I removed from my truck and have the old bushings pressed out and the new ones put in. Then I'll put those links back on the truck so that I have ES bushings all the way around my front end. The new links I put on last night will then move to my Excursion (assuming that fitment is the same since they are both 2WD vehicles). If I find that the fitment is different, I might just take the new links back to Napa.
- I'm going to see if I can make any additional improvements by adjusting the steering box, but will be very careful to limit any adjustments there to minimize any chances of increasing the wear in the OEM box.
RECOMMENDATIONS... If ...
1) you can proactively swing the cash,
2) have relatively high miles (>200,000),
3) have not yet replaced any of these components, AND
4) have sloppy steering....
... THEN I would highly recommend making the part swaps with new components for a greatly improved ride and handling.
#3
I know, Rick, but since I have 2WD, I feel safer keeping the "grip" where it can get drive power (I may change my mind before they go on, though).
Also, I just got a call from the tire/alignment shop, and I need to replace both upper ball joints again. After running back through my records, I've gotten 70K miles off the XRF joints on the driver side and this will be the second replacement for the Moog's on the passenger side in that same time frame. Also, XRF is sending me a complete pair of new joints to replace the bad upper joint on the driver side, and I'm going to go ahead adn convert the passenger side to XRF's as well.
Once I get the new joints in this weekend, I'll get the new tires and complete alignment. They can make a temporary alignment for me how so I can get my road trips out of the way while waiting for the XRF's to come in. I don;t have time to do the ball joints during this week anyway given the travel I have to do.
Also, I just got a call from the tire/alignment shop, and I need to replace both upper ball joints again. After running back through my records, I've gotten 70K miles off the XRF joints on the driver side and this will be the second replacement for the Moog's on the passenger side in that same time frame. Also, XRF is sending me a complete pair of new joints to replace the bad upper joint on the driver side, and I'm going to go ahead adn convert the passenger side to XRF's as well.
Once I get the new joints in this weekend, I'll get the new tires and complete alignment. They can make a temporary alignment for me how so I can get my road trips out of the way while waiting for the XRF's to come in. I don;t have time to do the ball joints during this week anyway given the travel I have to do.
#4
OK... I'm doing the ball joints tomorrow and will replace the sway bar bushings sometime in the next couple weeks. It appears that Energy Suspension does in fact have some sway bar bushings which just might work on my 2WD front end... investigation is continuing before I order them, though.
Over the past several days, ever since the tire shop got my toe-in straightened out, I've put nearly 1,000 miles on the truck with the new tie-rods and end links, and I can tell you it is already driving like a new vehicle. Minimal sway in turns, exceptionally smooth steering response, and even my WIFE noticed the improvement while riding in the passenger seat!! I can hardly wait to get the ball joints and bushings installed, and then pinch a tiny bit more slack out of the steering box.
Rick... update regarding best location for new tires... insurance regulations, tire safety folks, Popular Mechanics, etc. all agree that the new tires (when replacing only two) need to go on the rear of the vehicle. I included some links below so you can read the articles yourself. In speaking to my Tire Man about this, he said that this "new" idea got initiated as a result of a huge lawsuit over the issue about 8 years ago. Apparently, there is real science behind it aside from the legal implications.
Tire Tech Information - Where to Install New Pairs of Tires?
Why New Front Tires on Your Back Wheels Are a Good Idea - Popular Mechanics
Tire Safety Starts Here - ATS | Tire Industry Association (see question #1)
Why should two new tires always go in the back? Find out. | Car Talk
Over the past several days, ever since the tire shop got my toe-in straightened out, I've put nearly 1,000 miles on the truck with the new tie-rods and end links, and I can tell you it is already driving like a new vehicle. Minimal sway in turns, exceptionally smooth steering response, and even my WIFE noticed the improvement while riding in the passenger seat!! I can hardly wait to get the ball joints and bushings installed, and then pinch a tiny bit more slack out of the steering box.
Rick... update regarding best location for new tires... insurance regulations, tire safety folks, Popular Mechanics, etc. all agree that the new tires (when replacing only two) need to go on the rear of the vehicle. I included some links below so you can read the articles yourself. In speaking to my Tire Man about this, he said that this "new" idea got initiated as a result of a huge lawsuit over the issue about 8 years ago. Apparently, there is real science behind it aside from the legal implications.
Tire Tech Information - Where to Install New Pairs of Tires?
Why New Front Tires on Your Back Wheels Are a Good Idea - Popular Mechanics
Tire Safety Starts Here - ATS | Tire Industry Association (see question #1)
Why should two new tires always go in the back? Find out. | Car Talk
#6
#7
Well, Rick, the "best traction" principle holds true regardless, and in the end it really doesn't matter whether the vehicle is front or rear wheel drive... the stability is provided from the rear. With the greater traction being in the rear, you will minimize/avoid the influence of centrifugal forces pushing your rear end out of control in a turn, and it doesn't matter if the rear is the driven axle or not. Virtually all of the links below make the "new on the rear" an absolute recommendation regardless of which axle is driven. Otherwise, if the drive axle location mattered, they would all be saying "on the rear UNLESS" (or "EXCEPT...)", but none of them claim any exception to the recommendation.
Let's think a little more about this, and I'll quote another site's explanation because it is both short and clear. (link ... NebraskaTire - Tires 101 - Installing Two New Tires)
"A Tires 101 lesson on ... Tire Installation
"If I buy 2 new tires should I put them on the front or the rear?
"If purchasing 2 new tires it is recommended that you install them on the back of the car. If you install a high traction tire on the front drive axle, you are leaving the lighter end of the vehicle (the rear) with no traction improvement. Most tire manufacturers recommend that front wheel drive vehicles have all four tires of equal traction. There have been situations where vehicles have spun out of control because, either the driver became overconfident with the traction of the front tires or the rear tires were worn. This surprise spin-out effect has caused accidents in the past. Having all four tires of equal traction helps ensure that this situation does not happen. Based on recommendations of 7 tire companies
"Question: I am buying two new tires. Where do they go, front or rear?
"Answer: Always on the rear. In a cornering maneuver on wet pavement, if your front tires lose grip first, your vehicle will tend to lose control by going straight, even in a turn. This is understeer, which can be controlled by slowing down and steering in the direction of the turn.. this will allow your car to come back into line.
"But if the rear tires lose grip first, your vehicle, could spin, which is oversteer and more difficult to control, this requires you to make quick, precise steering corrections in the opposite direction of the turn, not a natural reaction. It is easier to control understeer than oversteer."
ADDITIONAL LINKS from various companies recommending REAR installation for 2 new tires.
Popular Mechanics
6 Common Tire Myths Debunked - Popular Mechanics
Michelin
http://www.michelinman.com/mediabin/...lin_042009.pdf
Uniroyal
Proper Tire Care Needed To Maintain Your New Car, Truck, SUV, and Minivan Tires | Uniroyal Tire
Maxxis
Automotive Tire Safety
TireRack
Two new tires -- on the front or rear? - Cars Vs. Roads: Brought to you by MAC | Tire Rack
Goodyear Tire Store
Tire Experts Complete Auto Care - "We Want Your Business... We Will Earn Your Trust" TM
Let's think a little more about this, and I'll quote another site's explanation because it is both short and clear. (link ... NebraskaTire - Tires 101 - Installing Two New Tires)
"A Tires 101 lesson on ... Tire Installation
"If I buy 2 new tires should I put them on the front or the rear?
"If purchasing 2 new tires it is recommended that you install them on the back of the car. If you install a high traction tire on the front drive axle, you are leaving the lighter end of the vehicle (the rear) with no traction improvement. Most tire manufacturers recommend that front wheel drive vehicles have all four tires of equal traction. There have been situations where vehicles have spun out of control because, either the driver became overconfident with the traction of the front tires or the rear tires were worn. This surprise spin-out effect has caused accidents in the past. Having all four tires of equal traction helps ensure that this situation does not happen. Based on recommendations of 7 tire companies
"Question: I am buying two new tires. Where do they go, front or rear?
"Answer: Always on the rear. In a cornering maneuver on wet pavement, if your front tires lose grip first, your vehicle will tend to lose control by going straight, even in a turn. This is understeer, which can be controlled by slowing down and steering in the direction of the turn.. this will allow your car to come back into line.
"But if the rear tires lose grip first, your vehicle, could spin, which is oversteer and more difficult to control, this requires you to make quick, precise steering corrections in the opposite direction of the turn, not a natural reaction. It is easier to control understeer than oversteer."
ADDITIONAL LINKS from various companies recommending REAR installation for 2 new tires.
Popular Mechanics
6 Common Tire Myths Debunked - Popular Mechanics
Michelin
http://www.michelinman.com/mediabin/...lin_042009.pdf
Uniroyal
Proper Tire Care Needed To Maintain Your New Car, Truck, SUV, and Minivan Tires | Uniroyal Tire
Maxxis
Automotive Tire Safety
TireRack
Two new tires -- on the front or rear? - Cars Vs. Roads: Brought to you by MAC | Tire Rack
Goodyear Tire Store
Tire Experts Complete Auto Care - "We Want Your Business... We Will Earn Your Trust" TM
Trending Topics
#8
Ok, Pete. I read where it doesn't make a difference on the front or rear drive, to put the new tires on the rear.
Thanks for showing me this. I never bought only 2 tires at a time on any vehicle I've owned. If I ever do, I will put them on the rear.
For the last 12 years, I've had to change 6 tires on the truck and 8 tires on my trailer. $$$$$$$$$$$$
Thanks for showing me this. I never bought only 2 tires at a time on any vehicle I've owned. If I ever do, I will put them on the rear.
For the last 12 years, I've had to change 6 tires on the truck and 8 tires on my trailer. $$$$$$$$$$$$
#9
Make sure you don't buy this one on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...d=718945254004
They say they will fit but they won't.
I just finished installing the Energy Suspension set # 4.5186G. They fit with no problems.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...d=718945254004
They say they will fit but they won't.
I just finished installing the Energy Suspension set # 4.5186G. They fit with no problems.
#10
My steering got real sloppy over night. I found out that the place that balanced my rear tires decided to air up my fronts to 80 psi...I air'd em back down to 70 and all is back to normal.
I agree with putting the new tires on the rear. The skidding tire will always try to lead the vehicle. Just reach down and lock your trailer brakes and see how long it takes before the trailer try's to pass you...
You want better tread on the rear regardless what end the drive tires are on.
Rick, I know all to well about buying tires in bulk. I did the truck and camper last year, and just did the rear axle of the truck again. This time I used high dollar rubber Hopefully these will last a while
Pete, putting money in the front end parts is money well spent! Peace of mind for you and the family.
I agree with putting the new tires on the rear. The skidding tire will always try to lead the vehicle. Just reach down and lock your trailer brakes and see how long it takes before the trailer try's to pass you...
You want better tread on the rear regardless what end the drive tires are on.
Rick, I know all to well about buying tires in bulk. I did the truck and camper last year, and just did the rear axle of the truck again. This time I used high dollar rubber Hopefully these will last a while
Pete, putting money in the front end parts is money well spent! Peace of mind for you and the family.
#11
Make sure you don't buy this one on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...d=718945254004
They say they will fit but they won't.
I just finished installing the Energy Suspension set # 4.5186G. They fit with no problems.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...d=718945254004
They say they will fit but they won't.
I just finished installing the Energy Suspension set # 4.5186G. They fit with no problems.
2WD or 4WD?
What I'm going to check the measurements on are the two below because they measure exactly 31.5 mm, and I've read elsewhere that the 2WD bar is 31.5mm... I'm checking that dimension myself tomorrow.
http://www.energysuspensionparts.com...sp?prod=9.5165
http://www.energysuspensionparts.com...sp?prod=9.5172
#13
FYI: NAPA carries two different grades of tie rod ends. When my moog "problem solver" tie rod ends (well one of them anyway) failed in 4 months, I went with NAPA replacements. I asked about the difference between the two and they showed both to me. The heavy duty version is visually thicker and heavier duty. They have been great for me so far. Already lasted way longer than the moog stuff.
That's interesting info about the tires Pete. I know many moons ago, we were always told that new tires always go on the rear. Then several years ago it seems that the tire shops started recommending putting the two new tires on the front instead.
I wonder if that was from some bad testing, or did the tire guys just start assuming that since new tires used to go on the rear drive axle, they needed to go on the front drive axle, and that somehow got shortened to put new tires up front?
That's interesting info about the tires Pete. I know many moons ago, we were always told that new tires always go on the rear. Then several years ago it seems that the tire shops started recommending putting the two new tires on the front instead.
I wonder if that was from some bad testing, or did the tire guys just start assuming that since new tires used to go on the rear drive axle, they needed to go on the front drive axle, and that somehow got shortened to put new tires up front?
#14
#15
UPDATE...
I did the ball joints this weekend, and what I found was absolutely amazing. The passenger side upper joint (Moog) had at least twice as much slop in it as compared to the driver side upper (XRF), while the driver side had 20,000 more miles on it than the other. I have not mentioned this, but I can easily guess that part of the accelerated wear on the passenger side Moog was the condition of the passenger side end link which had enough wear to cause one end of the bolt sleeve to be flared into an oval shape.
All in all, my conclusion at this point is that the "premature" wear on my ball joints has to be related to the worn condition of the end links (and perhaps tie-rods as well). With all those units replaced (and new wheel bearings were installed back in the early spring of this year), I can feel absolutely no movement or shifting in the steering and handling of the truck at all, even on rough road sections.
The alignment is finally getting done today, as well as the new pair of tires to replace the unevenly worn and cupped front tires that are still on it. I forgot to measure the sway bar this weekend, but will do that shortly so I can order a set of new bushings, and then I'll have a completely new front end with the small exception of a steering box. I'm telling, you, the steering and handling is silky smooth and feels like a brand new vehicle, and I couldn't be happier with the improvements.
I'm going to plan on repeating the effort on my Excursion this coming spring just to stay ahead of the game. It's tires are still wearing evenly, and the ball joints are only about 30,000 miles old at this point. If I replace the tie-rods, end links, and sway bar bushings proactively, I should head off any pending uneven wear issues and keep it in prime condition for my wife and kids' security.
I did the ball joints this weekend, and what I found was absolutely amazing. The passenger side upper joint (Moog) had at least twice as much slop in it as compared to the driver side upper (XRF), while the driver side had 20,000 more miles on it than the other. I have not mentioned this, but I can easily guess that part of the accelerated wear on the passenger side Moog was the condition of the passenger side end link which had enough wear to cause one end of the bolt sleeve to be flared into an oval shape.
All in all, my conclusion at this point is that the "premature" wear on my ball joints has to be related to the worn condition of the end links (and perhaps tie-rods as well). With all those units replaced (and new wheel bearings were installed back in the early spring of this year), I can feel absolutely no movement or shifting in the steering and handling of the truck at all, even on rough road sections.
The alignment is finally getting done today, as well as the new pair of tires to replace the unevenly worn and cupped front tires that are still on it. I forgot to measure the sway bar this weekend, but will do that shortly so I can order a set of new bushings, and then I'll have a completely new front end with the small exception of a steering box. I'm telling, you, the steering and handling is silky smooth and feels like a brand new vehicle, and I couldn't be happier with the improvements.
I'm going to plan on repeating the effort on my Excursion this coming spring just to stay ahead of the game. It's tires are still wearing evenly, and the ball joints are only about 30,000 miles old at this point. If I replace the tie-rods, end links, and sway bar bushings proactively, I should head off any pending uneven wear issues and keep it in prime condition for my wife and kids' security.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
corbin9191
1999 - 2003 7.3L Power Stroke Diesel
12
11-08-2011 09:15 AM
K9BELLA
Excursion - King of SUVs
10
07-11-2010 01:21 PM