Thinking about fuel injection
#1
Thinking about fuel injection
Hello everyone,
I have been toying with the idea of switching from carburetor to one of the new fuel injection systems. Wondered if anyone had done this and their results. My truck I a 85 F250, 7.5l, c-6, 2wd, extended cab, long bed, 8800gcvw, XLT Lariat. 67k original miles. Any experience would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
RJ
I have been toying with the idea of switching from carburetor to one of the new fuel injection systems. Wondered if anyone had done this and their results. My truck I a 85 F250, 7.5l, c-6, 2wd, extended cab, long bed, 8800gcvw, XLT Lariat. 67k original miles. Any experience would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
RJ
#2
Hello everyone,
I have been toying with the idea of switching from carburetor to one of the new fuel injection systems. Wondered if anyone had done this and their results. My truck I a 85 F250, 7.5l, c-6, 2wd, extended cab, long bed, 8800gcvw, XLT Lariat. 67k original miles. Any experience would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
RJ
I have been toying with the idea of switching from carburetor to one of the new fuel injection systems. Wondered if anyone had done this and their results. My truck I a 85 F250, 7.5l, c-6, 2wd, extended cab, long bed, 8800gcvw, XLT Lariat. 67k original miles. Any experience would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
RJ
May I ask why you would want to do this with a vehicle with such low mileage?
I have nothing against fuel injection, but there is very little difference between it and a properly set up and tuned carburetor. But, there is one caveat: just like with any EFI system, all of the proper components must be in place and functioning correctly. From reading your introduction post, it seems as if that is the case with your truck. Are you having any issues with your engine?
If you decide to switch to one of the aftermarket EFI systems, you better plan on keeping your truck and learn how to work on it yourself. NO ONE is going to want to work on a vehicle that has an aftermarket EFI system on it, and most people wouldn't want to buy one.
#3
Personally I’m intrigued by the idea of an aftermarket fuel ejection system. Maybe a simple TBI system with an O2 sensor so I can adjust my air fuel mixture on my smart phone! If we’re not there already we probably will be soon.
I think FI Tech makes something like that and some guy put one on a carbed 460 Centurion and liked it, boasting 9.5 MPG. Not sure if it’s better for power or performance but it’s not all that much better the the 8.5 mpg I get with a stock 4180 carb on a much heavier rig.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...on-e350-5.html
bingo
I think FI Tech makes something like that and some guy put one on a carbed 460 Centurion and liked it, boasting 9.5 MPG. Not sure if it’s better for power or performance but it’s not all that much better the the 8.5 mpg I get with a stock 4180 carb on a much heavier rig.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...on-e350-5.html
bingo
#4
FI
I was just trying to get an idea if someone had already done it and how it performed. I have the factory Holley carburetor. Since this truck came out of California the carburetor doesn’t have mixture screws. The truck runs very well and I average about 9 mpg. I appreciate everyone’s input.
#5
FI
I was just trying to get an idea if someone had already done it and how it performed. I have the factory Holley carburetor. Since this truck came out of California the carburetor doesn’t have mixture screws. The truck runs very well and I average about 9 mpg. I appreciate everyone’s input. The carb number is a 4150.
#6
I was just trying to get an idea if someone had already done it and how it performed. I have the factory Holley carburetor. Since this truck came out of California the carburetor doesn’t have mixture screws. The truck runs very well and I average about 9 mpg. I appreciate everyone’s input. The carb number is a 4150.
You should have two mixture screws up front and at the bottom of the carburetor. They *may* have limiter caps covering them. If they need to be adjusted further than the caps allow, that tells you the problem isn't the carburetor.
If it runs "very well," why would you want to go through the trouble and expense to change it? An aftermarket fuel injection system is not going to gain you anything.
#7
I was motivated by your post to google and YouTube and it seems there could be long term reliability issues with the current crop of aftermarket FI systems.
The late 4180 factory Holleys had hard steel anti-tamper plugs covering the idle mixture screws from the factory. Don’t bother drilling them. Best way to remove them is to cut a groove on the under side of the carb until you can get in behind the plugs and drive them out with a flat tip screw driver. Then the mixture screws are 3/32 allen head.
As you’re trying to stab a little 3/32nd allen head into the recessed, tiny, idle mixture cavities, guarded by a bramble of vacuum lines, under the front fuel bowl, on a running 460 at operating temp, (bonus points for a van chassis!) an aftermarket fuel injection system starts sounding pretty good!
The late 4180 factory Holleys had hard steel anti-tamper plugs covering the idle mixture screws from the factory. Don’t bother drilling them. Best way to remove them is to cut a groove on the under side of the carb until you can get in behind the plugs and drive them out with a flat tip screw driver. Then the mixture screws are 3/32 allen head.
As you’re trying to stab a little 3/32nd allen head into the recessed, tiny, idle mixture cavities, guarded by a bramble of vacuum lines, under the front fuel bowl, on a running 460 at operating temp, (bonus points for a van chassis!) an aftermarket fuel injection system starts sounding pretty good!
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#8
I've considered installing aftermarket FI on my Oldsmobile. From what I've read FiTech and Holley Sniper seem to be the best 2 systems. Of course, installing FI on a Ford truck you could also salvage a complete system from a later model truck and install it. If you go with aftermarket FI you MAW get a setup that controls timing.
#9
#10
Originally Posted by Olds64
Of course, installing FI on a Ford truck you could also salvage a complete system from a later model truck and install it.
If the difference was "like night and day" according to the owner, that tells me *something* wasn't right with his engine.
If both systems are properly set up and tuned correctly, there isn't much of a difference. Everybody accepts the fact that a fuel injection system is a complete package; you can't just leave off stuff and expect it work right. But with carbureted systems, so many people ignore this very real fact and are often missing vital components that are necessary in order for it to run as good as it is supposed to. When I hear people complain of their carbureted vehicle not running well, the problem is usually the fault of the owner trying to re-engineer or "hot rod" their engine while still expecting street-like manners. An oversized carburetor, aftermarket racing cam, high rise air gap intake manifold, open element air cleaner, and a maladjusted or missing choke are all common modifications that hurt a daily-driven vehicle with a carburetor.
#11
The practical difference between FI and a carb is minimal. The issue today with carbs is not many people know how to set them up properly. Especially the current crop of tech's that work at the average garage.
It always amazes me that people will spend hundreds if not thousands and who knows how many hours converting a carb;d vehicle to FI due to running issues. When usually the carb cna be made to run as as good for a quarter the cash
The aftermarket CFI systems may not work with all manifolds they tend to not like dual plane intakes.
The 4180 Ford used is pig of a carb and had some engineering issues. Replace it with any standard aftermarket carb and you will see more power and better economy once properly set up.
It always amazes me that people will spend hundreds if not thousands and who knows how many hours converting a carb;d vehicle to FI due to running issues. When usually the carb cna be made to run as as good for a quarter the cash
The aftermarket CFI systems may not work with all manifolds they tend to not like dual plane intakes.
The 4180 Ford used is pig of a carb and had some engineering issues. Replace it with any standard aftermarket carb and you will see more power and better economy once properly set up.
#12
The practical difference between FI and a carb is minimal. The issue today with carbs is not many people know how to set them up properly. Especially the current crop of tech's that work at the average garage.
The 4180 Ford used is pig of a carb and had some engineering issues. Replace it with any standard aftermarket carb and you will see more power and better economy once properly set up.
The 4180 Ford used is pig of a carb and had some engineering issues. Replace it with any standard aftermarket carb and you will see more power and better economy once properly set up.
Since I’ve managed to coax reasonably good service out of my 4180 over the years I’ll take that as a compliment! Seriously though I’d appreciate your opionion on EGR (does it help or hurt?) and any 460 carb upgrade recommendations.
#13
I agree there is probably not a lot to gain by fuel injecting an otherwise stock carbed 460. Between the lower compression, smog heads, and restricted exhaust, a carb is really all you need to make torque at low RPMs.
Since I’ve managed to coax reasonably good service out of my 4180 over the years I’ll take that as a compliment! Seriously though I’d appreciate your opionion on EGR (does it help or hurt?) and any 460 carb upgrade recommendations.
Since I’ve managed to coax reasonably good service out of my 4180 over the years I’ll take that as a compliment! Seriously though I’d appreciate your opionion on EGR (does it help or hurt?) and any 460 carb upgrade recommendations.
I agree with everything Matthew said except for calling the Motorcraft 4180 a "pig of a carb" with "engineering issues."
The Motorcraft 4180 was used on the 460 engine, 5.8 H.O. engine, and the even the mighty 1983 - 1985 Mustang GT used it on the 5.0 H.O. engine. I have never had one personally, but there are lots of "four-eyed" Mustang guys who love that carburetor and still run it, even with extensive engine modifications. The Motorcraft 4180 was the very last carburetor Ford used on a production vehicle, so that makes it one of the most advanced and precise carburetors ever. As a result, it was able to pass strict (at the time) 1980s emissions, so it would be unfair to call it a "pig." I think the only real downside of the Motorcraft 4180 is the fact that it is more complex than a typical aftermarket carburetor or older non-emissions carburetor.
As for EGR, if your motor is completely stock, I would keep it. That was part of the emissions system, and your stock distributor and carburetor is calibrated for it. If you decide to disable it or remove it, you would also need to re-jet your carburetor and/or re-curve your distributor to compensate in order to retain optimum performance. (And that is a good example of what I was saying above about carbureted systems and how all the parts are engineered to work together. If you remove a component - such as EGR - it will often have a negative impact on drivability, unless you compensate for it by re-tuning.)
#14
I agree with everything Matthew said except for calling the Motorcraft 4180 a "pig of a carb" with "engineering issues."
The Motorcraft 4180 was used on the 460 engine, 5.8 H.O. engine, and the even the mighty 1983 - 1985 Mustang GT used it on the 5.0 H.O. engine. I have never had one personally, but there are lots of "four-eyed" Mustang guys who love that carburetor and still run it, even with extensive engine modifications. The Motorcraft 4180 was the very last carburetor Ford used on a production vehicle, so that makes it one of the most advanced and precise carburetors ever. As a result, it was able to pass strict (at the time) 1980s emissions, so it would be unfair to call it a "pig." I think the only real downside of the Motorcraft 4180 is the fact that it is more complex than a typical aftermarket carburetor or older non-emissions carburetor.
As for EGR, if your motor is completely stock, I would keep it. That was part of the emissions system, and your stock distributor and carburetor is calibrated for it. If you decide to disable it or remove it, you would also need to re-jet your carburetor and/or re-curve your distributor to compensate in order to retain optimum performance. (And that is a good example of what I was saying above about carbureted systems and how all the parts are engineered to work together. If you remove a component - such as EGR - it will often have a negative impact on drivability, unless you compensate for it by re-tuning.)
The Motorcraft 4180 was used on the 460 engine, 5.8 H.O. engine, and the even the mighty 1983 - 1985 Mustang GT used it on the 5.0 H.O. engine. I have never had one personally, but there are lots of "four-eyed" Mustang guys who love that carburetor and still run it, even with extensive engine modifications. The Motorcraft 4180 was the very last carburetor Ford used on a production vehicle, so that makes it one of the most advanced and precise carburetors ever. As a result, it was able to pass strict (at the time) 1980s emissions, so it would be unfair to call it a "pig." I think the only real downside of the Motorcraft 4180 is the fact that it is more complex than a typical aftermarket carburetor or older non-emissions carburetor.
As for EGR, if your motor is completely stock, I would keep it. That was part of the emissions system, and your stock distributor and carburetor is calibrated for it. If you decide to disable it or remove it, you would also need to re-jet your carburetor and/or re-curve your distributor to compensate in order to retain optimum performance. (And that is a good example of what I was saying above about carbureted systems and how all the parts are engineered to work together. If you remove a component - such as EGR - it will often have a negative impact on drivability, unless you compensate for it by re-tuning.)
#15
I agree there is probably not a lot to gain by fuel injecting an otherwise stock carbed 460. Between the lower compression, smog heads, and restricted exhaust, a carb is really all you need to make torque at low RPMs.
Since I’ve managed to coax reasonably good service out of my 4180 over the years I’ll take that as a compliment! Seriously though I’d appreciate your opinion on EGR (does it help or hurt?) and any 460 carb upgrade recommendations.
In emissions vehicles the unburnt fuel is dealt with by the thermatic and the cat...
Pulling the EGR may required richening up the carb. but it will be rewarded with more power and possibly better fuel economy. But this will require setting up the the carb and possibly recurving the dist.
As for a carb I;m not fan of the Carter (Edelbrock) for Ford applications.
So Holley it is, or alternatively I would have a hard look at the Summit Racing M2008 Series Carburetors these are based off the old Holley 4010 which was based off the old Autolite 4100.
The 750 CFM should be good for a mild to moderately modified 460. If it is bog stock the 600 CFM will suffice but it will be undersized at the upper end...