1980 - 1986 Bullnose F100, F150 & Larger F-Series Trucks Discuss the Early Eighties Bullnose Ford Truck

Thinking about fuel injection

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Old 10-21-2018, 12:27 PM
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Thinking about fuel injection

Hello everyone,
I have been toying with the idea of switching from carburetor to one of the new fuel injection systems. Wondered if anyone had done this and their results. My truck I a 85 F250, 7.5l, c-6, 2wd, extended cab, long bed, 8800gcvw, XLT Lariat. 67k original miles. Any experience would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
RJ

 
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Old 10-22-2018, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by irvdog63
Hello everyone,
I have been toying with the idea of switching from carburetor to one of the new fuel injection systems. Wondered if anyone had done this and their results. My truck I a 85 F250, 7.5l, c-6, 2wd, extended cab, long bed, 8800gcvw, XLT Lariat. 67k original miles. Any experience would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
RJ

May I ask why you would want to do this with a vehicle with such low mileage?

I have nothing against fuel injection, but there is very little difference between it and a properly set up and tuned carburetor. But, there is one caveat: just like with any EFI system, all of the proper components must be in place and functioning correctly. From reading your introduction post, it seems as if that is the case with your truck. Are you having any issues with your engine?

If you decide to switch to one of the aftermarket EFI systems, you better plan on keeping your truck and learn how to work on it yourself. NO ONE is going to want to work on a vehicle that has an aftermarket EFI system on it, and most people wouldn't want to buy one.
 
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Old 10-23-2018, 01:50 AM
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Personally I’m intrigued by the idea of an aftermarket fuel ejection system. Maybe a simple TBI system with an O2 sensor so I can adjust my air fuel mixture on my smart phone! If we’re not there already we probably will be soon.

I think FI Tech makes something like that and some guy put one on a carbed 460 Centurion and liked it, boasting 9.5 MPG. Not sure if it’s better for power or performance but it’s not all that much better the the 8.5 mpg I get with a stock 4180 carb on a much heavier rig.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...on-e350-5.html

bingo

 
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Old 10-23-2018, 12:57 PM
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FI

I was just trying to get an idea if someone had already done it and how it performed. I have the factory Holley carburetor. Since this truck came out of California the carburetor doesn’t have mixture screws. The truck runs very well and I average about 9 mpg. I appreciate everyone’s input.
 
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Old 10-23-2018, 12:58 PM
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FI

I was just trying to get an idea if someone had already done it and how it performed. I have the factory Holley carburetor. Since this truck came out of California the carburetor doesn’t have mixture screws. The truck runs very well and I average about 9 mpg. I appreciate everyone’s input. The carb number is a 4150.
 
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Old 10-23-2018, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by irvdog63
I was just trying to get an idea if someone had already done it and how it performed. I have the factory Holley carburetor. Since this truck came out of California the carburetor doesn’t have mixture screws. The truck runs very well and I average about 9 mpg. I appreciate everyone’s input. The carb number is a 4150.

The factory carburetor would be a Motorcraft (Made by Holley) 4180.

You should have two mixture screws up front and at the bottom of the carburetor. They *may* have limiter caps covering them. If they need to be adjusted further than the caps allow, that tells you the problem isn't the carburetor.

If it runs "very well," why would you want to go through the trouble and expense to change it? An aftermarket fuel injection system is not going to gain you anything.
 
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Old 10-24-2018, 02:07 AM
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I was motivated by your post to google and YouTube and it seems there could be long term reliability issues with the current crop of aftermarket FI systems.

The late 4180 factory Holleys had hard steel anti-tamper plugs covering the idle mixture screws from the factory. Don’t bother drilling them. Best way to remove them is to cut a groove on the under side of the carb until you can get in behind the plugs and drive them out with a flat tip screw driver. Then the mixture screws are 3/32 allen head.

As you’re trying to stab a little 3/32nd allen head into the recessed, tiny, idle mixture cavities, guarded by a bramble of vacuum lines, under the front fuel bowl, on a running 460 at operating temp, (bonus points for a van chassis!) an aftermarket fuel injection system starts sounding pretty good!




 
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Old 10-24-2018, 08:10 AM
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I've considered installing aftermarket FI on my Oldsmobile. From what I've read FiTech and Holley Sniper seem to be the best 2 systems. Of course, installing FI on a Ford truck you could also salvage a complete system from a later model truck and install it. If you go with aftermarket FI you MAW get a setup that controls timing.
 
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Old 10-24-2018, 09:07 AM
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Thde mechanic that has worked on my 1984 F150 HO for years just did a Holley FI on a 454 Chevrolet..Like night and day..according to the owner. Couple hours to install..Fuel pump/return line.changes. If my carb goes bad..it's FI for me..
 
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Olds64
Of course, installing FI on a Ford truck you could also salvage a complete system from a later model truck and install it.
If you must, that really is the best way to do it. Not only is a stock Ford fuel injection system a better, more reliable system than anything the aftermarket has to offer, but any mechanic would be able and willing to work on it and replacement parts are readily available off the shelf in most parts stores around the country.



Originally Posted by ozark1
Thde mechanic that has worked on my 1984 F150 HO for years just did a Holley FI on a 454 Chevrolet..Like night and day..according to the owner. Couple hours to install..Fuel pump/return line.changes. If my carb goes bad..it's FI for me..

If the difference was "like night and day" according to the owner, that tells me *something* wasn't right with his engine.

If both systems are properly set up and tuned correctly, there isn't much of a difference. Everybody accepts the fact that a fuel injection system is a complete package; you can't just leave off stuff and expect it work right. But with carbureted systems, so many people ignore this very real fact and are often missing vital components that are necessary in order for it to run as good as it is supposed to. When I hear people complain of their carbureted vehicle not running well, the problem is usually the fault of the owner trying to re-engineer or "hot rod" their engine while still expecting street-like manners. An oversized carburetor, aftermarket racing cam, high rise air gap intake manifold, open element air cleaner, and a maladjusted or missing choke are all common modifications that hurt a daily-driven vehicle with a carburetor.
 
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Old 10-24-2018, 04:12 PM
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The practical difference between FI and a carb is minimal. The issue today with carbs is not many people know how to set them up properly. Especially the current crop of tech's that work at the average garage.

It always amazes me that people will spend hundreds if not thousands and who knows how many hours converting a carb;d vehicle to FI due to running issues. When usually the carb cna be made to run as as good for a quarter the cash
The aftermarket CFI systems may not work with all manifolds they tend to not like dual plane intakes.

The 4180 Ford used is pig of a carb and had some engineering issues. Replace it with any standard aftermarket carb and you will see more power and better economy once properly set up.
 
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Old 10-25-2018, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by matthewq4b
The practical difference between FI and a carb is minimal. The issue today with carbs is not many people know how to set them up properly. Especially the current crop of tech's that work at the average garage.

The 4180 Ford used is pig of a carb and had some engineering issues. Replace it with any standard aftermarket carb and you will see more power and better economy once properly set up.
I agree there is probably not a lot to gain by fuel injecting an otherwise stock carbed 460. Between the lower compression, smog heads, and restricted exhaust, a carb is really all you need to make torque at low RPMs.

Since I’ve managed to coax reasonably good service out of my 4180 over the years I’ll take that as a compliment! Seriously though I’d appreciate your opionion on EGR (does it help or hurt?) and any 460 carb upgrade recommendations.

 
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Old 10-25-2018, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Brnfree
I agree there is probably not a lot to gain by fuel injecting an otherwise stock carbed 460. Between the lower compression, smog heads, and restricted exhaust, a carb is really all you need to make torque at low RPMs.

Since I’ve managed to coax reasonably good service out of my 4180 over the years I’ll take that as a compliment! Seriously though I’d appreciate your opionion on EGR (does it help or hurt?) and any 460 carb upgrade recommendations.


I agree with everything Matthew said except for calling the Motorcraft 4180 a "pig of a carb" with "engineering issues."

The Motorcraft 4180 was used on the 460 engine, 5.8 H.O. engine, and the even the mighty 1983 - 1985 Mustang GT used it on the 5.0 H.O. engine. I have never had one personally, but there are lots of "four-eyed" Mustang guys who love that carburetor and still run it, even with extensive engine modifications. The Motorcraft 4180 was the very last carburetor Ford used on a production vehicle, so that makes it one of the most advanced and precise carburetors ever. As a result, it was able to pass strict (at the time) 1980s emissions, so it would be unfair to call it a "pig." I think the only real downside of the Motorcraft 4180 is the fact that it is more complex than a typical aftermarket carburetor or older non-emissions carburetor.

As for EGR, if your motor is completely stock, I would keep it. That was part of the emissions system, and your stock distributor and carburetor is calibrated for it. If you decide to disable it or remove it, you would also need to re-jet your carburetor and/or re-curve your distributor to compensate in order to retain optimum performance. (And that is a good example of what I was saying above about carbureted systems and how all the parts are engineered to work together. If you remove a component - such as EGR - it will often have a negative impact on drivability, unless you compensate for it by re-tuning.)
 
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Old 10-25-2018, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by LARIAT 85
I agree with everything Matthew said except for calling the Motorcraft 4180 a "pig of a carb" with "engineering issues."

The Motorcraft 4180 was used on the 460 engine, 5.8 H.O. engine, and the even the mighty 1983 - 1985 Mustang GT used it on the 5.0 H.O. engine. I have never had one personally, but there are lots of "four-eyed" Mustang guys who love that carburetor and still run it, even with extensive engine modifications. The Motorcraft 4180 was the very last carburetor Ford used on a production vehicle, so that makes it one of the most advanced and precise carburetors ever. As a result, it was able to pass strict (at the time) 1980s emissions, so it would be unfair to call it a "pig." I think the only real downside of the Motorcraft 4180 is the fact that it is more complex than a typical aftermarket carburetor or older non-emissions carburetor.

As for EGR, if your motor is completely stock, I would keep it. That was part of the emissions system, and your stock distributor and carburetor is calibrated for it. If you decide to disable it or remove it, you would also need to re-jet your carburetor and/or re-curve your distributor to compensate in order to retain optimum performance. (And that is a good example of what I was saying above about carbureted systems and how all the parts are engineered to work together. If you remove a component - such as EGR - it will often have a negative impact on drivability, unless you compensate for it by re-tuning.)
No body that has to keep the stock 4180 usually does does. It had some serious engineering issues right from day one. It shares very little with other Holleys in both parts and operation. The metering blocks are different , idle air adjust is in the base plate the accel pump circuit was modified ( and not in a good way) they use transfer tube internally between the fuel bowl and carb body sealed with O rings over time they always leak and you lose a chunk of your pump shot. The internal fuel passages were changed and modified to meet emissions and increase fuel economy with the fitted primary annular discharge boosters, this led to flat spots and hesitation and to top it off passages were not always fully drilled through in the carb body leading to fuel restriction and other issues, these need to be checked upon rebuild all...23 of them. Not to mention the almost always present off idle bog, unless you were lucky enough to be at a geographic location that was similar to what they were set up at. There is fairly long list of modifications and checks to get these carbs to perform properly and to address all the engineering deficiencies in them. Once done they can perform as well as any Holley but as built they are a pig of a carb.... The only way I would keep one and spend the time to sort it out is if it was required by emissions or for originality. Otherwise I would trade bucket full of of them for single 4100 Autolite. The 4180 is right up there with the 4350 Motorcraft, difference is the 4180 can be usually be sorted out with enough time and patience where as many 4350's the only way to make them useful is to tie rope to it and use it as a boat anchor.
 
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Old 10-25-2018, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Brnfree


I agree there is probably not a lot to gain by fuel injecting an otherwise stock carbed 460. Between the lower compression, smog heads, and restricted exhaust, a carb is really all you need to make torque at low RPMs.

Since I’ve managed to coax reasonably good service out of my 4180 over the years I’ll take that as a compliment! Seriously though I’d appreciate your opinion on EGR (does it help or hurt?) and any 460 carb upgrade recommendations.

The EGR does lower combustion temps this reduces NOX emissions and will allow you run a leaner cruise fuel air ratio but at the cost of HP. The EGR contrary to popular belief does not increase fuel economy at best it will be awash and it may hurt it. People seem to think that since you are sucking exhaust gases into the engine that you will use less fuel. It takes X amount of fuel to make X amount of HP regardless of the EGR. And X amount of HP to move a vehicle along at X speed these are constants. So if you dilute the intake charge with exhaust gases you do not get full combustion and need more throttle and in turn more fuel to make the same HP... And you may end up hurting fuel economy by not fully burning the fuel in the combustion charge this mean even more throttle and fuel is needed to develop the X required amount of HP
In emissions vehicles the unburnt fuel is dealt with by the thermatic and the cat...
Pulling the EGR may required richening up the carb. but it will be rewarded with more power and possibly better fuel economy. But this will require setting up the the carb and possibly recurving the dist.

As for a carb I;m not fan of the Carter (Edelbrock) for Ford applications.
So Holley it is, or alternatively I would have a hard look at the Summit Racing M2008 Series Carburetors these are based off the old Holley 4010 which was based off the old Autolite 4100.
The 750 CFM should be good for a mild to moderately modified 460. If it is bog stock the 600 CFM will suffice but it will be undersized at the upper end...
 


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