I also take it as compliment on the 4180 as I built mine about 10 years ago for my performance type 351W that I built.

I did modify the 4180 somewhat but don't know if I got all 23 things done. It runs very well on my engine no hesitation

or flat spots. The choke works like it is suppose to and I have no complaints about it's performance. To me it is a

very good carb if it is setup correctly.

 

My experience agrees with Matthew on ERG removal requiring bigger jets in the carb. On my 2150 I went from 53 to 57 jets and improved performance and mileage after ERG removal the

I hope he is less correct on the Edelbrock carb. because after distributor work (recurving to all in by 2500-2600 RPMs) my next move is installation of an Edelbrock AVS carb.

 

The Edelbrock is a much better carb than the old AVS was, Edelbrock fixed most of the issues but this did not happen overnight But it is still a Carter and they never really were designed to compliment Ford installations. Ford never used the AVS, Chevrolet used it one year (66) on one engine, but then dropped the AVS in favor of the Rochester Quadrajet due to some very fundamental design issues in the AVS
Carter spent a year trying to fix these problems and convinced Chrysler to use them beginning in the 68 model year. To say the AVS was troublesome was an understatement and were usually pulled and replaced with an AFB or a Holley pretty darn quick.... And the AFB was no sweet heart either but it was better than the AVS. The AVS was not designed as a performance carb but an emissions carb to better control fuel mix for lower emissions which led to flat spots , off idle stumbles, and a whole host of other problems, Even the Edelbrock AVS suffers from these issues today to a lesser degree, these continued issues are what led Edelbrock to develop the AVS2, more on that later..

The AVS only lasted till 1971 when it was replaced by the thermoquad. Carter tried to sell the AVS after market starting in 72 but there were basically no sales and so they let it die a well deserved death. It was a dead and forgotten carb and rightfully so, until Edelbrock bought it back in the mid eighties The AVS was initially a POS and gets a high ranking for one of the worst 4BBLs ever made the early Eldbrocks were not much better either.. Edelbrock spent a lot of time and money reworking the AVS to make it a functional carb and even then they can suffer from stumble and hesitation.. When they are working they are not bad but when they are not, oh boy... Even when they are working right an AVS will never run as well as a properly set up 4100.
Now the AVS2 has some potential Edelbrock has re-worked the AVS once again to fix some the off idle stumbling and flat spots that were inherent with the the AVS, this was mostly achieved by adding annular discharge boosters (a la Autolite/Motorcraft) to deliver a more precise signal for fuel metering and the reworking some of the fuel delivery... I think the AVS2 design will ultimately replace all the the AVS carbs. If I had to pick an Edelbrock carb it would be the AVS2. But I would still pick the Summit M2008 carbs over the Edelbrock they are simpler and easier to set up and way cheaper , and the Summit carb comes with set up DVD and a manual.. A properly functioning and set up carb should work every bit as good as as Fuel Injection with no hesitation no stumble and no flat spots.

 

Ya they can be made to run well if you spend the time. Looks like you nailed it, even the pro;s sometimes have issues with the 4180's getting them to run right

 

The price was the catch for me. I originally wanted to install an aftermarket EFI system on my '84 302. It wasn't really because I thought it was superior, it was just that I had done some EFI tuning before, and figured I'd be more comfortable with a laptop and USB cable than adjusting a carb. However...just like you said, the carb was a quarter of the cost for me, if not a fifth. Now, a few months and several thousand miles later, I am really impressed with how well my Holley 4160 works. Once my engine is all warmed up and the heat fully soaked in, the carb performs flawlessly. The only time I would still like to have EFI is for the cold starts and the few minutes of driving I sometimes do before everything is fully warmed up.

 

Ys that is where EFI has the advantage for sure is on a cold engine. No stumbling or hesitating etc. But as you said it only lasts for a few mins until things are warmed up. How has the truck been working for you? Sounds like you have some miles on now.

 

Truck has been working great. I put about 4-5000 kms (3k miles) on it this summer, and it's running really well. I would leave to drive it across the country tomorrow without hesitation. I really have very little left to do mechanically. I'm going to install front and rear swaybars this winter, and if I get ambitious enough I'm going to rebuild my spare 5spd, although it is fairly low priority at the moment. Digging into less fun stuff this winter...box rehab, and while it's off, hopefully new fuel and brake lines, etc.

 

1. - What type of carburetor do you have?
2. - Do you have a working choke? **
3. - Are you still using the stock thermostatic air cleaner? If so, is the hot air tubing in place and working correctly? **
4. - What is your starting procedure?

** The lack of these two items hurt cold weather performance when you are using a carburetor. A carburetor (and throttle body fuel injection systems) needs a heat source to perform as well as EFI.



A *properly-tuned* carburetor with a working choke should start up just as good as any *properly-functioning* EFI with a working computer. A daily driven vehicle equipped with a carburetor should only require one single pump of the pedal to set the choke on a cold start and the vehicle should immediately fire. As soon as it fires, you should be able to drive away immediately without any hesitations or stalling in any weather condition. A warm engine doesn't even need that. A warm engine should start right up with only a turn of the key just as fast or even faster than EFI. Anything less than that and there is a problem somewhere.


Here is a great example of how well a properly-tuned carbureted vehicle (1974 F100) *can* start in temperatures as cold as 5 degrees:

 

1. Carb is a new Holley 4160 with electric choke and vacuum secondaries.
2. Yes, choke is adjusted and is working fine.
3. No. I've had an open element air cleaner on the truck all summer. I have the stock air cleaner and the Mustang 5.0 dual snorkel air cleaner, but not installed.
4. I start it and leave it on the high idle for a minute (1600 RPM-ish), and then give it a tap which knocks it down to around 1000-1100 RPM where I let it sit for a few minutes to warm up. When I'm finally ready to drive it, another quick tap of the pedal, and it drops to my warm idle around 750 RPM.

This truck is not a daily driven vehicle. Most of the summer it was driven once or twice a week. This time of year it will sit a couple weeks between starts. It starts instantly, hot or cold, no issues there. It's not that it works poorly when it's cold, it's just that it works better when it's fully hot after driving it for a few miles. It probably wouldn't even be noticeable with an automatic, but with the 5spd, I do notice an improvement once it's fully heat soaked. Once hot, the engine runs strong and smooth. I'm really happy with it.

I don't think there's any denying that EFI works better for cold starts and runs smoother in general, it's just that the difference is minimal compared to the price difference between carb and aftermarket EFI. My 2 cents at least.

 

I like the idea of EFI on these trucks too, but if I was going to do it, I'd do it right and install factory ford EFI. Its practically bolt on as well on these trucks. But if you were hell-bent on budget efi, you could cobble something from 1980s GM tbi rather cheaply, but idk if the advantages would be worth it.

 

From your description, it sounds like the choke is working properly, and your warm (curb) idle speed is right on.


However, I would like to point out a couple of things that I think will help:

First - you do not have to wait until the choke comes completely off and is on warm idle speed in order to drive the vehicle.

Second - if the vehicle immediately goes to 1600 RPM when temperatures are really cold, then the idle speed is too high. You are *supposed* to set the fast idle speed to 1600 RPM when the vehicle is at full operating temperature. When you set it at full operating temperature, 1600 RPM is when the choke is ready to come OFF. In warmer conditions, a tap of the gas pedal will bring the choke completely off. In colder conditions, a tap of the gas pedal will bring the choke down to the second step of the fast idle cam, which also brings the fast idle speed down some.

When temperatures are really cold, the engine *should* start at about 1100 RPM or so. You can drive away on the choke immediately if you like, without waiting for it to "warm up." 1100 RPM should be fast enough - but not too fast - for the vehicle to be driven away without any sort of stalling or hesitation. If it makes you feel better - and this is what I sometimes do when it is really cold - you can wait for the fast idle speed to creep up to 1600 RPM or so and then give the gas a tap to bring the fast idle cam down one notch. And guess where the idle speed goes to then? 1100 RPM. And then simply drive away. (If you notice, these are the same idle speeds as a modern vehicle with EFI when the temperatures are cold enough.) As the vehicle warms up from driving, the choke will automatically come completely off. It is actually better for your engine to drive away sooner, rather than let it sit and "warm up" or idle for a long time. Your vehicle will come up to full operating temperature faster in one mile of driving than if you let it sit at idle for 10 minutes.

Third - the stock thermostatic air cleaner will also help the vehicle to warm up faster and provide better driveability in all conditiions. Carbureted engines and even throttle-body fuel injection systems need a hot air source for better fuel atomization in colder conditions and to prevent carburetor icing. It also serves as a true "cold air" intake and eliminates seasonal carburetor adjustments.

 

Oh yes, sure...I could get in it and drive, but the truck is just a toy for me, and I'm never in any kind of a rush to get in it and just go. I'd much rather let it warm up a little bit and let it settle out than driving it with the choke still on. It doesn't go immediately to 1600 RPM...it starts more like 1400 or 1500 RPM, and then creeps up to 1600. I'm not 100% sure where exactly it starts, but it seems to settle around 1600 RPM before I kick it off. I won't be driving it in really cold weather, and the truck is in my garage, so even now, the coldest start it would have would be around 45F.

I'm pretty happy with it as it is now. I'm sure I could tweak some more improvements out of it, but it's working so well the way it is now, I feel the return on more effort would probably be pretty small. I will be playing around with air cleaners and timing later on, but it's fairly low priority at the moment.

 

You are not hurting anything by driving the vehicle with the choke still on. That is how it is designed to work. It is not any different than driving a modern vehicle with EFI. The only difference is, the computer is causing the fast idle rather than the choke on a carburetor.

But, you are in good company. So many people feel the need to let their carbureted vehicles "warm up" before they drive them - even when they have a working choke. I have seen people whack the throttle repeatedly in the freezing cold in order to get the fast idle speed down, and then they still insist on letting the vehicle sit for 10 minutes before they drive the vehicle.

I don't get it?

 

Starting and driving are not quite the same thing. And NO carbed vehicle will just drive off as well as EFI in sub zero temps. And when i say cold I'm not taking the American version of cold where anything under freezing constitutes cold Heck it is freezing here this am but it is not cold it';s light jacket weather out. When Im say cold I'm taking well below freezing.

And unlike EFI the carb depends on engine heat to help prevent the fuel from falling out of suspension. When the engine is cold especially in winter NO carb will function as well as EFI on a sub zero cold engine no matter how well it is set up. This is fact. And 5°F is nothing that is about the average daily temp for 3 months of the year. And really that was not a great start either I would call it marginal at best. At those temps. It should fire off immediately literally just tap the key and it should fire, once you get around -15°F then you should start seeing a revolution of 2 before firing.
My diesels start better than that at those temps. So I would not hold that example as a good cold start and it wasn't really that terribly cold either...

And driving off at an idle speed of 100 or 1100 rpm is NOT recommended in the winter especially on slippery roads. As you can find yourself being powered right through that first stop sign at the end of the street under light braking.

 

I know it doesn't hurt anything, but they're not pleasant to drive like that. I don't do it with the EFI vehicles either. If they're cold enough to go into high idle, it doesn't hurt anything to give them a minute or two to settle down and warm up a bit. They work better when they're warmed up anyway, carbed or EFI.