way back when i went to elementary school (a whole 10 years ago) we made sure we celebrated or observed every holiday there was. for halloween we all dressed up in our costumes and paraded around the school, for thanksgiving we made up all kinds of pilgrim and indian outfits, for christmas we exchanged gifts, president's day we did all kinds of arts and crafts for, valentines day we exchanged cards... etc etc...

my parents are both elementary school teachers, my mom teaches first grade and my dad teaches sixth. in their school, they are no longer allowed to celebrate holidays such as halloween or christmas for various reasons. halloween the schoolboard says its too dangerous to be dressing up in costumes, and if a kid gets caught wearing anything resembling a costume to school they get sent home. at christmas, we always used to exchange grab bag gifts and have a party the last afternoon before vacation- that is no more. schoolboard says its not fair to every child to exchange gifts and since not everyone celebrates christmas that it is innappriate. i could go on and on with examples but my point is.... holidays are losing their observance in schools.

i personally think this is totally wrong. i can't imagine not being able to celebrate all the different holidays if i was a 2nd or 3rd grader. that would certainly be lousy in my opinion. things are getting taken way to seriously by overzealous parents and the kids are losing out in the long run. heck, if you get caught drawing a gun on your paper- your looking at expulsion from school anymore. i think that's all i drew on all my papers when i was in 4th grade im sure there's many of you out there who have seen this happening firsthand, either as students when you were going through school or as parents with younger children.

what does everyone else think about this?


chris

 

hummmm touchy subject but i will throw my $0.02 in.. I myelf don,t believe in god so it would be hypocritical(sp?) of me to celebrate his birth so i don't give or recieve gifts for christmas BUT!! yes Santa Claus comes to my house for my son and yes i allow him to celebrate all the holidays.. the way i see it is i will allow him to obseve the holidays till he is old enuff to make his own decision, my wife is methodist and she does believe in god so she celebrates christmas
Now dont get me wrong i still go to my familys and spend time with them but they all know my feelings and dont try to force the issue on me as i dont try to force my views on them..

My question is..if a bullheaded s.o.b. like myself has enuff commonsense to allow others their own views why cant the rest of the world???? LOL:-X12

 

You mean you can look at the awesome trees outside, and hear the wind blow through them, and watch the leaves fall, and see the clouds billow up and drop rain, and then recede and let the sun shine....and yet you don't believe in God????


I'm just having a hard time understanding how people can say that. It's not just you man, a lot of people on these boards have stated that they don't believe either...but how in the world do you people think we got here? Do you think some giant explosion actually created all this beauty?? Man, I just don't get it.

But anyway, back to the post...yeh, holidays are starting to lose observance. You are right. Unless of course it's a NAACP sanctioned holiday. We don't have a day for great Americans like Robert Lee, Abe Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson, etc. etc. I could go on and on. But we sure as heck observe a day for Martin Luther King, don't we? We should stick to the American traditions. We are taking this idea of liberty way too far...we are stretching it into things it was never meant to be. What next...

 

I happen to agree that overzealous parents are becoming a major problem. I also happen to believe in the big bang. Hello! If God can just say 'poof it is' and then it is, why can't he just say 'poof explode and it is'???? Have you not ever thought that God may have been the one to do the big bang? They say the big bang lasted was it, 6 million years? who's to say a million years to us isn't 1 day to God?

As for people who do not believe, that is their right and their privalidge (sp) just like it's my right to believe. It's their right to not observe like it is my right to observe. It's their right to walk away if they don't like to see someone praying in public, or in school for that matter, just like it's my right to pray in public or in school.

The people who are pushing the whole take the "one nation under God" out of the pledge and to change the nation's motto "in God we trust" are loopy! Who says that just becuz I believe in the Christian God, that those sayings have to mean the Christian God to everyone? Why can't the sayings mean "Jehovah" or "Allah" (sp)???? It's a word, just like every other word that has ever been spoken. It can mean whatever you want it to in your heart and mind. To a non believer, their "God" may simply be themselves or their consciousness or their right to choose or their bodys or their spouses or their favorite cartoon hero. It's open to interpretation and I think that as soon as everyone realizes that, then, and only then, will there be religious freedom in a country currently full of persecution.

www.wepledge.com to support keeping the pledge and the motto the same!

As soon as parents realize, like some already have and I applaud you for that, that their children are going to grow up and make up their own minds and you cannot force them to be what you wish, only encourage and teach them your beliefs, then and only then, will our children be free to learn about religion without it being considered preaching. I learned about Hannakah in school. Was I being preached to, no. Did it affect my beliefs, certainly but only becuz I was not near so ignorant and reliant upon the church. I started learning outside the church and have read things that the church would probably say made me ... how to put it... things that could corrupt my mind... things that were blasphemous to God...bla bla bla. I say you gotta know both sides of the story before you can make a judgement.

I've said it before and I'll end up saying it again, I have a very weird point of view but it just seems so simple to me. I don't understand why everyone has to be out to get each other and each other's money and right's and whatever else they may have. As most of my friends here say when some of us get into a fight, "Can't we just all get along?"


Thanx!
Connie (only Ford luvr in the family!)

'79 f100 "Silver Ghost" (my baby)
'83 f100 "The Ford" (my first)
'85 f150 "Old Blue" (my next project)

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 11-Dec-02 AT 04:02 PM (EST)]>You mean you can look at the awesome trees outside, and hear
>the wind blow through them, and watch the leaves fall, and
>see the clouds billow up and drop rain, and then recede and
>let the sun shine....and yet you don't believe in God????

in a word......yes.

>I'm just having a hard time understanding how people can say
>that. It's not just you man, a lot of people on these
>boards have stated that they don't believe either...but how
>in the world do you people think we got here? Do you think
>some giant explosion actually created all this beauty??
>Man, I just don't get it.

by the same token......I(we) have a hard time understanding your position and how "you people" think we got here.

>But anyway, back to the post...yeh, holidays are starting to
>lose observance. You are right. Unless of course
>it's a NAACP sanctioned holiday. We don't have a day for
>great Americans like Robert Lee, Abe Lincoln, Thomas
>Jefferson, etc. etc. I could go on and on. But we sure as
>heck observe a day for Martin Luther King, don't we? We
>should stick to the American traditions. We are taking this
>idea of liberty way too far...we are stretching it into
>things it was never meant to be. What next...

i agree(suprise). what the hell is Kwanza? black folks who are christian celebrate christmas. black folks who are muslim celebrate rhamadan. militant black folks celebrate kwanza, look at their website.

please dont turn this into a believers VS. non-believers thing, we've already done that. i love people and believe in science, but also love the magic and warmth of the christmas holiday. the ACLU never sues a city to remove the minora that symbolizes hanika for the jews or whatever the muslims use to symbolize rhamadan, but they'll damn sure sue to remove a nativity scene and try to take the "christ" out of christmas.


read not to condemn but to consider

 

Carefull guys - you're getting close to stepping over the line and having this thread locked.

 

I could say a lot of things here but I am going say only one thing.
If what you beleve in makes you a better person go for it for, if you are a better person in your mind you will be better for your family and frends.

 

Anything that has its roots in a Caucasian European custom is now subject to degradation. This is how the gutless Caucasian liberal politicians have ruined the culture of the US. They continue to be afraid of any attacks from minorities and cater to the idiotic gibberish that is put over in the name of "multiculturism". Well sorry, this country was never multi cultural. It was settled by many diverse peoples that participated in the "melting pot", and created a unique culture called AMERICAN.

Unfortunately it is now being dismembered and scattered to the vultures of the multi-cultural bosses. Our once flourishing beautful culture is being replaced by other traditions imported from other cultures masking its identity as the new American culture. It is nothing of the sort. It is simply the destruction of the American culture that was built over the last 200 years.

It makes me sick to see what is happening in the name of diversity and tolerance. I don't care if someone celebrates any aspect of their ancestor's culture, just don't make everyone recognize it. We don't have to celebrate every culture on earth. We can respect each others culture without forcing it up in the face of others.

However, when one immigrates to America, they should be proud, and expect to participate in, the American culture. Those that degrade the American culture should be shown the door.

 

guys, try not to turn this into another religious debate, it wasn't my intent... i like all your ideas alot tho



"It's a word, just like every other word that has ever been spoken. It can mean whatever you want it to in your heart and mind. To a non believer, their "God" may simply be themselves or their consciousness or their right to choose or their bodys or their spouses or their favorite cartoon hero. It's open to interpretation..."

- that's one of the best explanations i've ever read as far as God is concerned, thanks Connie


brienobrien, i agree with your entire post 100 percent. to go along with what you said about diversity and tolerance- i think they are being forced on youth so much anymore that younger people are becoming incredibly weak emotionally, physically, and mentally. you know what im talking about... the competitions where everyone gets a participant ribbon and everyone's a winner, sorry but that's preparing kids for nothing but failure when they grow up.

"cant we all just get along?"

i don't know about all of you individually, but i sure don't want to get along with everyone, i have tried that before, its no fun! life has more of a flavor to it when there's adversity, friction, and competition don't you think?


chris

 

>Carefull guys - you're getting close to stepping over the
>line and having this thread locked.


a question Mrs. Moderator, just where is that line? that is something nobody on this site seems to want to make clear and everybody else, either crosses without knowing or, comes close to without warning.


present case excluded.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 11-Dec-02 AT 06:41 PM (EST)]Connie, your point of view is not "weird." It's called "eloquent," and I thank you for sharing it.

One asks how we can look at the beauty of nature, etc...and not believe in God. I ask: how could such a god let Hitler slaughter 6 million innocent human beings? Rhetorical, yes- it requires no response.

By the way, even this pointy-headed, do-gooder liberal can't argue with the initial post- the loss of holidays in schools is a rotten shame. I'd hate to have to be a student nowadays.

 

It always winds up being the many against the few. The fight to get "under God" added to the pledge was started by the many, and fought against by the few. Now, we are letting the few get rid of it completely.
I think of it like this: You have a v8 engine in your truck, and it has one bad rod bearing. Now, do you listen to the 7 good ones, or the one bad one? This is the way that thinking has gone in this country. Rather than listening to the majority, so many lawmakers now listen to the loud minority, perhaps just to shut them up, but it is having very far-reaching effects. Where would this country be without religion? This was not founded as an athiest country, if you want that, go to Russia, or I guess China now, as Russia has become quite religious. My point is, that this country was founded with religious freedoms in mind. Now, the government is taking away all those freedoms for fear of offending the non-religeous. Schools have become the battleground. If you work somewhere you don't like, you leave. But you can't change schools that easily. Maybe there should be different schools for different religions and backgrounds. Just a thought.

Oh yeah, and, without opening up another fireball here, can anybody show me where in the Constitution or the Bill of Right is seperation of church and state mentioned?

Jared

 

>Oh yeah, and, without opening up another fireball here, can
>anybody show me where in the Constitution or the Bill of
>Right is seperation of church and state mentioned?


my answer is taken from the following website

http://www.spiritual-answers.com/Laws/church_and_state.htm



The fact is the government has never passed a law implementing a "separation of church and state."

The concept is derived from the First Amendment of the The Constitution of the United States of America, which reads as follows:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."





>Carefull guys - you're getting close to stepping over the
>line and having this thread locked.

>a question Mrs. Moderator, just where is that line? that is >something nobody on this site seems to want to make clear and >everybody else, either crosses without knowing or, comes close to >without warning.

prime example of the few wanting to ruin it for the many. i agree- what line are we crossing? we would just want to debate the issue, it's called learning, please don't infringe upon it.



i think God is with me on this one tho, it seems his hand has evoked a boldface font in my original post which was not originally there


chris

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

Here is where I see a big flaw in people's logic of today. It says "no law respecting and establishment of religion," OOOORRRRR "prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" As a believer in the Christian "God" I have the right to exercise my religion, I can pray in school if I choose and they can't "prohibit" me from doing it either. They may 'prefer' that I do it silently but they cannot prohibit it. I am also part native american. If I choose to go and become a member of the NAC, then I can do a "drug" called peyote, legally, and they cannot touch me becuz those visions are part of their religion. As long as I'm not a member of the NAC (native american church) it is illegal to grow or have peyote. There can never be a seperation of church and state becuz the state has to make exceptions to it's laws for the church.

Now back to religion in schools. That's a point that many adults have their facts wrong about. Children can pray in school. Children in school do not have to salute the flag if it is against their religious beliefs. The do not have to attend functions where the pledge or the national anthem are a part of the ceremonies. My hometown went thru this. We had a Jehovah's Witness community in town and I was friends with 3 of the guys. They did not salute the flag (one of the boys told me that their parents believed it to be idolotry) and they did not say the pledge in class in the mornings, they didn't go to pep rally's where we played the national anthem (I was in the band) and they were nto punished becuz of it. They got to sit around playing on the computer or studying or whatever they chose to do, under adult supervision in the office or library of course. We had theological discussions as freshmen and sophomores in HS.

What they can stop, by the "seperation of church and state" as it is commonly called, is teachers, or any adult roll figures from influencing our feeble young children's minds. A teacher no longer has the right to pray in class unless it's done silently. If a student asks about "God" they are told to speak to their parents about it. That is understandable for children with parents who care. Unfortunately, there are parents in the world that view their children as burdens and then, who's there for those children to look up to? Also, the children can get together and have their own, student led, meetings per school policy, be it at lunch or after or before school per school policy. That means they have to have 'sponsors' or basically, babysitters, to sit and watch but not participate. That's school rules though.

Now as for the celebrating of holidays, they would have to be fair and celebrate all of them. Then, all the students are learning about all the religions instead of just Christmas and All Hallows Eve. Thanksgiving is an American holiday, not a Christian one. It's thanking "God," "fate," or even "lady luck" for the good things that have happened during the year. It's a feast to celebrate whatever! The day they take that right out of classrooms is they day I will promise my children will never see the inside of a public school classroom. Yes, be fair to all of them, teach Halloween, Christmas, Hanukkah and all the others. Don't take a whole day to do it and get out of class early, but spend a little time learning and trying to let the young children understand. Then when they get old enough, they can decide for themselves like most of us have done.

I have a bumper sticker on the window of my 85 F150. It reads, "Why do people with closed minds always open their mouths?" I think this does apply to those "minority extremists" that come to America, repress American culture so that they can pretend they're living in their home countries. If you're going to move here, 1. Learn the language, 2. Accept that our culture is not yours, 3. You came over here to get away from repression or something yourself, don't bring the repression with you over here becuz you're all butt hurt and panty wet that we don't do things your way. If you don't like it, cowboy up and take it, or go home and leave us to our ways. And for the ones that were born here, and can't stand to hear the word "God" learn that it's just a language and the meaning is in your heart and everyone elses differently. If it means literally "nothing" to you, then let it be that and go on.

2¢

Thanx!
Connie (only Ford luvr in the family!)

'79 f100 "Silver Ghost" (my baby)
'83 f100 "The Ford" (my first)
'85 f150 "Old Blue" (my next project)