Timing off - what next?
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From: Long Island USA
Are you saying the marks on the gears don't line up when they should?
Or do they line up correctly and you just didn't get it right? I'm a little confused. Glad you found it, but confused.
One thing you COULD do is run a compression test now and see if it's any different than before.
Or do they line up correctly and you just didn't get it right? I'm a little confused. Glad you found it, but confused.
One thing you COULD do is run a compression test now and see if it's any different than before.
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Senior User
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From: Mad City
Or not?
Rotated it a tooth in the direction I thought. Clearly off. Back to last setting. Looks right.
I started looking in detail at the directions that came with the (Cloyes True Roller) timing set.
There were two diagrams for each of "retard", "advance", and "factory". One for GM and Chrysler and another for Ford. The Ford diagrams show the mark on the cam gear being between two cam gear teeth. The GM and Chrysler diagram has the cam timing mark directly above the tooth.
Here's what mine looks like:
Anyone have remember where their cam gear timing marks were?
Guessing that jegs sent me the wrong set. Am waiting on the local shops to bring one in to verify before asking for a credit for set and gaskets (and hopefully not valve stems, rollers) etc...
I started looking in detail at the directions that came with the (Cloyes True Roller) timing set.
There were two diagrams for each of "retard", "advance", and "factory". One for GM and Chrysler and another for Ford. The Ford diagrams show the mark on the cam gear being between two cam gear teeth. The GM and Chrysler diagram has the cam timing mark directly above the tooth.
Here's what mine looks like:
Anyone have remember where their cam gear timing marks were?
Guessing that jegs sent me the wrong set. Am waiting on the local shops to bring one in to verify before asking for a credit for set and gaskets (and hopefully not valve stems, rollers) etc...
Hotshot
Joined: Apr 2009
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From: Stanley, VA
In the Ford shop manual the picture clearly shows the timing marks on both gears to be on the tooth not in between two teeth. It also shows the cam drive pin to be at the 12 o'clock position.
In the manual the marks are crank gear mark at 12 o'clock, the camshaft gear mark at 6 o'clock and the cam drive pin at 12 o'clock.
You should be able to put a straight edge to the timing set and the cam drive pin and both timing marks should line up.
Forgot, the crank keyway is also at the 12 o'clock position.
In the manual the marks are crank gear mark at 12 o'clock, the camshaft gear mark at 6 o'clock and the cam drive pin at 12 o'clock.
You should be able to put a straight edge to the timing set and the cam drive pin and both timing marks should line up.
Forgot, the crank keyway is also at the 12 o'clock position.
Postmaster
Joined: Jan 2009
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From: Chesapeake, Va.
In the early '70s Ford retarded the cam timing about 4* degrees for emissions. your cam gear mark is alightly off. A zero adbvance or retard gear should be marked in the exact center of the tooth. Yours is awfully close and the last Cloyes set I used had 3 key ways in the crank gear with 1 setting for TDC and 1 for 4*(?) advance and another for 4*(?) retard. I did not see any extra keyways in your crank gear so I guess you bought a standard timing gear set.
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From: Mad City
The other two marks (retard & advance) are on the other side of the crankshaft in the picture... Problem is, that's exactly how it was set up before (when it didn't work).
The reason I'm asking about the timing mark position is because of this:
http://www.cloyes.com/Portals/10/Tec...0(general).pdf
The difference in instructions for Ford vs. everybody else is only in the position of the cam mark (that I can tell, anyway). I know it seems like I'm grasping for straws here, but I'm not feeling like I did enough wrong the first time to explain the way the motor was misbehaving the way it was...
I have an OE set coming into my favorite local shop to do a side-by-side comparison. Don't feel like it's worth it at this point to put it back together the same way and try again absent some new information.
Anyone know how many teeth are on the OE sprockets? Could be a difference between the OE and three-way that still maintains the timing...
The reason I'm asking about the timing mark position is because of this:
http://www.cloyes.com/Portals/10/Tec...0(general).pdf
The difference in instructions for Ford vs. everybody else is only in the position of the cam mark (that I can tell, anyway). I know it seems like I'm grasping for straws here, but I'm not feeling like I did enough wrong the first time to explain the way the motor was misbehaving the way it was...
I have an OE set coming into my favorite local shop to do a side-by-side comparison. Don't feel like it's worth it at this point to put it back together the same way and try again absent some new information.
Anyone know how many teeth are on the OE sprockets? Could be a difference between the OE and three-way that still maintains the timing...
Postmaster
Joined: Jan 2009
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From: Chesapeake, Va.
Have your favorite shop get a timing set for a 1965 to 1969 engine and if it is an OEM set it will have the marks centered directly center of the cam gear tooth and the same with the crank gear. The sets for the later engines have an offset mark. After saying that, I have to say the problem you have would not occur with only 4 or even 8 degrees of advance or retard. There has to be another problem as that amount of timing variation would only change the rpm where peak torque and horsepower come in.
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From: Mad City
Yeah, I guess you're right. Seems odd that half a tooth would cause this much trouble: Can't amount to more than a few degrees. If it don't work after checking against the OE set and putting it back together, I guess I'll have to start thinking about other possibilities.
The weird thing is that it's been off the same amount so many times... Timing's simply the best explanation. Hafta wait to wait til Tuesday, I guess...
The weird thing is that it's been off the same amount so many times... Timing's simply the best explanation. Hafta wait to wait til Tuesday, I guess...
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From: Mad City
Turns over
Comparing gears didn't really get me anywhere: The OE ones are still 2:1 ratio. However, when buttoning her back up, I took the extra step of comparing the timing set's TDC to what the balancer/timing pointer said.
They were off. I replaced the balancer with a new one I had around from JEGS and it lined up.
Got it all put back together and she turns over with #1 TDC lined up as best I can get with the rotor/cap. She only fires for a couple of seconds. Pings, backfires and then dies.
Since it doesn't run long enough to get a timing light on it, I'm hesitant to twist the distributor from where I think TDC is. I guess I etch a mark? (I used a sharpie under the cap to point at the #1 point.) Or start turning the engine back to TDC for reference each time, "guess and check" style?
They were off. I replaced the balancer with a new one I had around from JEGS and it lined up.
Got it all put back together and she turns over with #1 TDC lined up as best I can get with the rotor/cap. She only fires for a couple of seconds. Pings, backfires and then dies.
Since it doesn't run long enough to get a timing light on it, I'm hesitant to twist the distributor from where I think TDC is. I guess I etch a mark? (I used a sharpie under the cap to point at the #1 point.) Or start turning the engine back to TDC for reference each time, "guess and check" style?
Postmaster
Joined: Jan 2009
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From: Chesapeake, Va.
It's time to ignore the distributor's current position and get the enine to #1 TDC and trace all of the wires from the dist to the plugs, being certain you are going in the proper rotation and firing order.
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From: Mad City
Just did all that.
It runs approximately the same as before (vacuum gauge bounces between about 3 and 8" when about 15 degrees out). Pings occasionally and dies after 30 seconds or so.
I sprayed starter fluid around possible sources of vacuum leaks - external edges of intake manifold, carb riser and gaskets, ugly copper piping left by previous owner, temperature switch. No obvious change in behavior. All others vacuum stuff has been capped.
Gauge suggests I should suspect "late valve timing" or "leak at intake manifold or heat riser".
It runs approximately the same as before (vacuum gauge bounces between about 3 and 8" when about 15 degrees out). Pings occasionally and dies after 30 seconds or so.
I sprayed starter fluid around possible sources of vacuum leaks - external edges of intake manifold, carb riser and gaskets, ugly copper piping left by previous owner, temperature switch. No obvious change in behavior. All others vacuum stuff has been capped.
Gauge suggests I should suspect "late valve timing" or "leak at intake manifold or heat riser".
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From: Mad City
Had an ASE buddy of mine over.
Pulled the valve cover to verify. Timing's correct. "Blowing past the intake valve" (backfiring).
Looks like it's time for a compression check... I will say that it's running much more poorly since I dropped some engine cleaner in there a month or so back, but I guess that's a stretcher for explaning what's going on.
Anyone know of different cam gear configurations across FEs, era to era? I could be running an older engine than the model year of the truck (75).
Only thing I'm sure of is that it's an FE - C6ME on the block and 352 up by the distributor. 390 marked in paint pen behind the front cover...
Pulled the valve cover to verify. Timing's correct. "Blowing past the intake valve" (backfiring).
Looks like it's time for a compression check... I will say that it's running much more poorly since I dropped some engine cleaner in there a month or so back, but I guess that's a stretcher for explaning what's going on.
Anyone know of different cam gear configurations across FEs, era to era? I could be running an older engine than the model year of the truck (75).
Only thing I'm sure of is that it's an FE - C6ME on the block and 352 up by the distributor. 390 marked in paint pen behind the front cover...
Postmaster
Joined: Jan 2009
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From: Chesapeake, Va.
That is correct.
Did you have the timing chain/gears visible when tou installed the distributor? So you would know that you were up on #1?
The vacuum gage does indicate late timing and that's why I ask.
As a last resort, do you have another carburetor available that you could try on your engine? One from a currently running engine? Like from a friends car or truck that has no issues. If you do just put it on your engine and see what happens. Just keep a fire extinguisher near by 'cause you don't want to replace a melted carb.
Did you have the timing chain/gears visible when tou installed the distributor? So you would know that you were up on #1?
The vacuum gage does indicate late timing and that's why I ask.
As a last resort, do you have another carburetor available that you could try on your engine? One from a currently running engine? Like from a friends car or truck that has no issues. If you do just put it on your engine and see what happens. Just keep a fire extinguisher near by 'cause you don't want to replace a melted carb.
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From: Long Island USA
Dumb question, but you know the #1 cylinder is on the passenger-side front?