So you are thinking about getting a dent..
#1
07-10-2010, 05:22 PM
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So you are thinking about getting a dent..
Hi everyone-
I'm still really new to dents, and I've been scouring the boards for a couple of weeks trying to get an overall view of what to know. A friend of mine asked me about old ford trucks today, he's looking for a F250 4x4, and this is what I sent. I know there are probably more than a few factual errors and mistakes, but I'd love your input and corrections. Maybe once it's correct, it could be a sticky? I would've loved this info all in one place, when I started eyeballing trucks.
**********
Ok. Here's what I 'know' about old fords so far, bear in mind that I've been focusing on 2wd and 'small block' setups, as that's what I have. Also, this is all from memory, and should be considered guidelines, not necessarily cold hard fact.
First of all some historical background: In the 60s and 70s, up until 1975, Ford made F100, F250 and F350 trucks (as well as big trucks like F650s and above). The F100 was a 1/2 ton truck, the 250 = 3/4 ton, and 350 = 1 ton. You can tell the difference between a 100 & 250 by the number of rear axle lug nuts, a F250 will have 8. I didn't check mine, and the guy I bought it from thought it was a 250, but it's a 100 as it only has 5. In 1975 Ford created the F150, which is the same as a F100 but with a lightly higher payload capacity in order to skirt smog regulations. Now, the 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton monikers are misleading as my 1/2 ton truck can carry almost 1 ton. and a 3/4 ton can carry over a ton.
Most trucks came with V8s, and there is a bewilldering number of combinations in running gear, made more confusing by the prevalence for engine swaps, but most motors can be broken down into 3 major groups:
1. The inline six cylinder 300 cu (also known later as the 4.9), which was a fantastic grunty motor that gets decent gas mileage compared to a big V8, and runs forever.
2. The 'small blocks' V8s, which on the trucks starts at 302 and includes the 351W (W for windsor). There was also a 351C and 351M. These are not interchangable with the Windsor motors, and I don't know much about them. The 302/351W family was used for decades and saw lots of use in the Mustang family. Parts are cheap, & easy to find, new & used. But this is a digression because I don't think the 250/4x4s didn't come with the 'small blocks.'
3. The 'big blocks' also known as 'FE' motors start at 360/390 and go up over 400cu (I think 428 "Cobra Jet" was the biggest). The 360 shared many components with the 390, and the only way to tell them apart is to measure the stroke of the motor. Most 360s become 390's when the trucks go on sale. Either motor is actually fine, but if you buy something listed as a 390, it's more than likely a 360.
As an aside, I'm using 'big block' & 'small block' in quotes because some ford fans will tell you these are Chevy terms.
The major difference in the 3 families besides, displacement, power, and fuel economy, is the bellhousing. Certain transmissions only bolt up to certain bellhousings.
Transmissions:
I'm less well versed here, as I've been focusing on my particular truck as it has a bad transmission. From what I know, there are 3 main automatics, and several manuals to choose from. The automatics are the C4, FMX, and C6, all of them 3-speeds. Most of the F100s with automatics got C4s, a 'light-duty' tranny. The FMX was typically used in Ford's full-size cars, but some trucks (like mine) got them as well. Bigger, tougher, and much heavier than a C4, it's typically swapped for a C6 or more modern automatic, as it's not well supported in the after market. The C6 is a beast, gigantic, heavy, and heavy duty. Generally considered bomb proof, and highly desirable for use in dragsters and stock cars. Parts for the C4 & C6 are plentiful and well supported in the aftermarket (shift kits, heavy duty clutch plates, etc...) The downside of the C6 is the parasitic loss. It apparently eats up 20-30hp just to work, much more than the FMX or C4. The way to tell the difference is by the shape of the tranny pan and the number of bolts. C4 & FMX had square pans with differing number of bolts (14 for the FMX and 11? for the C4). The C6 has a L-shaped pan, and no seam for the bellhousing. The C6s were made in small-block & big-block bellhousing and there is no way to make one fit the other.
As far as the manuals and the 4wd components (tranfer cases, rear ends etc..) I'm pretty clueless. But the wisdom of the board seems to favor manuals for the 4x4 trucks.
Used transmissions seem to go for $100-$500 on craigslist and the salvage yards I've spoken too. Rebuilt units from a specialist go for $1200-$2000. Shop rebuilds will typically run a similar price.
Fuel mileage seems to depend heavily on drive train choice. 8-12mpg seems typical for 4wd. 12-18 for 2wd with small blocks or 6-cylinders. Some have claimed upwards of 22mpg, but that seems to be only in ideal conditions. Fortunately (?) mpg doesn't seem to be hurt by carrying a load, or towing. It's just crappy all the time.
Body/Options:
There are more choices for options than there are for motors/transmissions. It's the strength of the american car companies. The base model was the Ranger, then the XL, then the XLT, but I think those were mostly post 1975. There's a 'Camper Special' which had an extra battery, heavy duty drive train, and many other options. There was also a Super Camper Special, which was a f350 with a special long wheelbase for the heavy slide in campers that were popular in the 70s. There was also an extended cab, and crew-cab models all with various options. In the early 70's the common options were AC, power steering, power brakes. Most of the AC units will now be dead and at the minium need a new compressor, they also don't work well with the new mandated AC fluid.
As many of these trucks weren't babied, they are suffering from 40 years of exposure. Rust is common, especially in the wheel wells, rear of the bed, floors, and the lower rear cab corners. If the truck was a California truck (or from anywhere that didn't use salt on the roads), it's not likely to have structural damage, but always good to look the frame and see. My truck is fairly straight and 'rust free' and it's got problems in the bed, and the door frames. For a work truck with a future in hauling dump loads and mulch, not a big deal. Also, pretty much any 73-79 body part will bolt up to any other 73-79 truck, provided you match bed length.
Safety:
All 2wds have front discs. 4x4s didn't get disc brakes until 76. Discs can be retrofitted. Shoulder belts didn't come until 75 or 76 I think. Mine's a 74 F100 and it has disc brakes and lap belts. Should belts can be retofitted with ford parts, but it's a cut&weld kind of job.
Fuel lines: most fuel lines are now cracked and failing, if they haven't been replaced. The new fuels they use now, eat old rubber and cause leaks or worse still, fires. It's one of those things that should be checked and replaced as soon as possible.
Tanks: Most 250s still had the fuel tank in the cab during these years. That makes some people nervous, but there haven't been reportings of these trucks blowing up in a crash for the last 40 years, so it doesn't bother me much. Also, retrofitting a later tank is certainly possible.
That's all I can think of right now...except for additional resources.
Parts suppliers, beyond the local Napa store:
LMC Truck Parts Truck Parts and Truck Accessories for Chevy, GMC, Ford and Dodge Trucks from LMCTruck.com
National Parts Depot: NPDLink | National Parts Depot
Blue Oval Ford Truck Parts Blue Oval Truck Parts: Truck Parts, Truck Accessories, F-Series Trucks Parts, Ford Truck F250 Accessories
Forums:
Ford Truck Enthusiast forum: 1973 - 1979 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums
I'm still really new to dents, and I've been scouring the boards for a couple of weeks trying to get an overall view of what to know. A friend of mine asked me about old ford trucks today, he's looking for a F250 4x4, and this is what I sent. I know there are probably more than a few factual errors and mistakes, but I'd love your input and corrections. Maybe once it's correct, it could be a sticky? I would've loved this info all in one place, when I started eyeballing trucks.
**********
Ok. Here's what I 'know' about old fords so far, bear in mind that I've been focusing on 2wd and 'small block' setups, as that's what I have. Also, this is all from memory, and should be considered guidelines, not necessarily cold hard fact.
First of all some historical background: In the 60s and 70s, up until 1975, Ford made F100, F250 and F350 trucks (as well as big trucks like F650s and above). The F100 was a 1/2 ton truck, the 250 = 3/4 ton, and 350 = 1 ton. You can tell the difference between a 100 & 250 by the number of rear axle lug nuts, a F250 will have 8. I didn't check mine, and the guy I bought it from thought it was a 250, but it's a 100 as it only has 5. In 1975 Ford created the F150, which is the same as a F100 but with a lightly higher payload capacity in order to skirt smog regulations. Now, the 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton monikers are misleading as my 1/2 ton truck can carry almost 1 ton. and a 3/4 ton can carry over a ton.
Most trucks came with V8s, and there is a bewilldering number of combinations in running gear, made more confusing by the prevalence for engine swaps, but most motors can be broken down into 3 major groups:
1. The inline six cylinder 300 cu (also known later as the 4.9), which was a fantastic grunty motor that gets decent gas mileage compared to a big V8, and runs forever.
2. The 'small blocks' V8s, which on the trucks starts at 302 and includes the 351W (W for windsor). There was also a 351C and 351M. These are not interchangable with the Windsor motors, and I don't know much about them. The 302/351W family was used for decades and saw lots of use in the Mustang family. Parts are cheap, & easy to find, new & used. But this is a digression because I don't think the 250/4x4s didn't come with the 'small blocks.'
3. The 'big blocks' also known as 'FE' motors start at 360/390 and go up over 400cu (I think 428 "Cobra Jet" was the biggest). The 360 shared many components with the 390, and the only way to tell them apart is to measure the stroke of the motor. Most 360s become 390's when the trucks go on sale. Either motor is actually fine, but if you buy something listed as a 390, it's more than likely a 360.
As an aside, I'm using 'big block' & 'small block' in quotes because some ford fans will tell you these are Chevy terms.
The major difference in the 3 families besides, displacement, power, and fuel economy, is the bellhousing. Certain transmissions only bolt up to certain bellhousings.
Transmissions:
I'm less well versed here, as I've been focusing on my particular truck as it has a bad transmission. From what I know, there are 3 main automatics, and several manuals to choose from. The automatics are the C4, FMX, and C6, all of them 3-speeds. Most of the F100s with automatics got C4s, a 'light-duty' tranny. The FMX was typically used in Ford's full-size cars, but some trucks (like mine) got them as well. Bigger, tougher, and much heavier than a C4, it's typically swapped for a C6 or more modern automatic, as it's not well supported in the after market. The C6 is a beast, gigantic, heavy, and heavy duty. Generally considered bomb proof, and highly desirable for use in dragsters and stock cars. Parts for the C4 & C6 are plentiful and well supported in the aftermarket (shift kits, heavy duty clutch plates, etc...) The downside of the C6 is the parasitic loss. It apparently eats up 20-30hp just to work, much more than the FMX or C4. The way to tell the difference is by the shape of the tranny pan and the number of bolts. C4 & FMX had square pans with differing number of bolts (14 for the FMX and 11? for the C4). The C6 has a L-shaped pan, and no seam for the bellhousing. The C6s were made in small-block & big-block bellhousing and there is no way to make one fit the other.
As far as the manuals and the 4wd components (tranfer cases, rear ends etc..) I'm pretty clueless. But the wisdom of the board seems to favor manuals for the 4x4 trucks.
Used transmissions seem to go for $100-$500 on craigslist and the salvage yards I've spoken too. Rebuilt units from a specialist go for $1200-$2000. Shop rebuilds will typically run a similar price.
Fuel mileage seems to depend heavily on drive train choice. 8-12mpg seems typical for 4wd. 12-18 for 2wd with small blocks or 6-cylinders. Some have claimed upwards of 22mpg, but that seems to be only in ideal conditions. Fortunately (?) mpg doesn't seem to be hurt by carrying a load, or towing. It's just crappy all the time.
Body/Options:
There are more choices for options than there are for motors/transmissions. It's the strength of the american car companies. The base model was the Ranger, then the XL, then the XLT, but I think those were mostly post 1975. There's a 'Camper Special' which had an extra battery, heavy duty drive train, and many other options. There was also a Super Camper Special, which was a f350 with a special long wheelbase for the heavy slide in campers that were popular in the 70s. There was also an extended cab, and crew-cab models all with various options. In the early 70's the common options were AC, power steering, power brakes. Most of the AC units will now be dead and at the minium need a new compressor, they also don't work well with the new mandated AC fluid.
As many of these trucks weren't babied, they are suffering from 40 years of exposure. Rust is common, especially in the wheel wells, rear of the bed, floors, and the lower rear cab corners. If the truck was a California truck (or from anywhere that didn't use salt on the roads), it's not likely to have structural damage, but always good to look the frame and see. My truck is fairly straight and 'rust free' and it's got problems in the bed, and the door frames. For a work truck with a future in hauling dump loads and mulch, not a big deal. Also, pretty much any 73-79 body part will bolt up to any other 73-79 truck, provided you match bed length.
Safety:
All 2wds have front discs. 4x4s didn't get disc brakes until 76. Discs can be retrofitted. Shoulder belts didn't come until 75 or 76 I think. Mine's a 74 F100 and it has disc brakes and lap belts. Should belts can be retofitted with ford parts, but it's a cut&weld kind of job.
Fuel lines: most fuel lines are now cracked and failing, if they haven't been replaced. The new fuels they use now, eat old rubber and cause leaks or worse still, fires. It's one of those things that should be checked and replaced as soon as possible.
Tanks: Most 250s still had the fuel tank in the cab during these years. That makes some people nervous, but there haven't been reportings of these trucks blowing up in a crash for the last 40 years, so it doesn't bother me much. Also, retrofitting a later tank is certainly possible.
That's all I can think of right now...except for additional resources.
Parts suppliers, beyond the local Napa store:
LMC Truck Parts Truck Parts and Truck Accessories for Chevy, GMC, Ford and Dodge Trucks from LMCTruck.com
National Parts Depot: NPDLink | National Parts Depot
Blue Oval Ford Truck Parts Blue Oval Truck Parts: Truck Parts, Truck Accessories, F-Series Trucks Parts, Ford Truck F250 Accessories
Forums:
Ford Truck Enthusiast forum: 1973 - 1979 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums
#2
07-10-2010, 05:56 PM
Fleet Mechanic
#4
07-10-2010, 08:58 PM
Nice job, good overview.
I don't think Ford ever put the 351C into a truck. The 351M and 400 are one engine family, and were installed in trucks starting in 1977. 360/390 are FE motors and were installed in dents through 1976. Don't believe the 428 was ever put in a truck by Ford either. Some early Dents still had the 240ci 6 as standard I believe, with the 300 optional.
I don't think Ford ever put the 351C into a truck. The 351M and 400 are one engine family, and were installed in trucks starting in 1977. 360/390 are FE motors and were installed in dents through 1976. Don't believe the 428 was ever put in a truck by Ford either. Some early Dents still had the 240ci 6 as standard I believe, with the 300 optional.
#5
08-02-2010, 09:23 AM
Elder User
#6
08-02-2010, 02:41 PM
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