i notice alot of people comparing apples to oranges so i thought i'd put in my 2 cents.
i bought a '96 f150 rc sb xlt 4x4 with the 300i6, 5speed and 3:55 gears. a buddy bought a truck identical to it 2 weeks later except his had the 302. these trucks were very comparable in everything. the 302 was a little faster.
i traded this truck in feb of '98 for a '98 f150 rc sb xlt 4x4 with the 4.6l, 5speed and 3:55 gears. as you can see, aside from the model change these two trucks were set up identical. now i think that 300 was and is a great motor, but that 4.6 beat the crap out of it in everything. it got 3.5 mpg better, a drag race would be very ugly for the 300 and the 4.6 pulled MUCH better.
remember that todays automatics are engineered to be smoother and provide smooth shifting. IMO this results in poor performance out of a smaller engine. i would be willing to bet that MOST people bad mouthing the new engines have not driven one with a manual tranny. these engines do produce impressive low end torque, but fords autos won't let them show it off.


" please start putting a 5.4l and 5-speed in the f150"

 

I thing the question is how much are you willing to pay for it?

Do all the new improvements justify the cost for a 90"~03 truck? I would say no. The cost to layoff people to pay for a machine that can do it is not a cost. The right off is only good for 10years. They had no out of pocket expence. Now throw in 70% of the parts are imported from 20 countries and you see where this headed.

I hear import car makers say there built here in the good old USA. Fact is there assembled here, Parts are imported!

The use of computers is a great asset. How many people have replaced some electronic part only to find it was lose wire or dirty valves or bad plug wires?

Here's one for you engineers. I setup a water injection system on my Truck. Average miles goes up by 4 mpg. It rains mpg's go up 4 mpg. Results are cleaner fuel combustion, Cleaner vavles, Cleaner piston's and head. Almost no HC out the pipe hardly even shows up.

 

Well here is my feeling about this comparison. While the 4.6 may be a little better for top speed and towing. It won't take much to make the ol 4.9 pull the same and even outpull a 4.6. And not only this but the 4.9 can be helped conciderably with changes in gearing. I think the 4.9 will take more abuse and last longer than the 4.6...time will tell.

 

I think the only place where Ford went wrong is getting rid of the 5-speed with the V-8's. But as far as motors are concerned todays are much better. People that want a 1/2 ton these days use it to pull boats or a small RV down the interstate. The 300 is great if you never have to get above 50 mph. while pulling, but the powerband on todays motors is more suited to pull at higher speeds. There is a truck to suit just about everyones needs which is where the SD's make up for what the 150's lack.
As far as pricing goes it seems that trucks are so much more expensive but you can get a 4x4 & 5.4 for less than $25k. Baseline MSRP on a 03 is just over $19k while in 90 it was was just under $11k which is an increase of an average of about $570 a year and the biggest jump in pricing has only been in the last few years. If you consider the stricter emisions requirements and safety features that are required nowdays and the researching and testing of them before they actually go into the trucks it becomes easy to see where these increases are coming from. I"m sure the execs at Ford get their fair share, same as with any manufacturer, but look at Fords profit, or lack there of over the last few years and the whole greed factor goes right out the window. Times are tough and so is the competitions and Ford still makes the best truck for the buck and overall for that matter, but they have to do what they have to to make a profit. And now with all the 0% financing options available today that is a huge incentive. Consider that 5% interest on a $25k 5 year loan adds up to $3306.85. That is enough of a difference to turn a Reg Cab 4.6 4x4 into a Super Cab 5.4 4x4.
As far as using imported materials to build trucks, it is cheaper to have them imported because foriegn labor is peanuts compared to what it is here. Imagine what pricing would be like if we used all american materials and labor. Remember that labor is the most expensive part of manufacuring. I get sick of people always complaining about high prices when they don't see the reasons for them. Everybody wants everything to be cheap and all american and not have to take a paycut to do so. But until the Chineese start getting paid the same that we do, don't expect that to happen.
If you don't want to spend the money for a new truck then get a low mileage used one and save yourself about 1/4 the cost of a new one.
As far as the 2004. I think it is gonna be a hellofa god truck and will send those other guys back to the drawing bored or CADD system. Can't wait to get a test drive.

 

The cost of labor has nothing to do with your cost. During a study they found that cost was unchanged. What did change was profit. The companys were racking in the highest profits sence the 1950's after the II war.

The average growth for most was 15~20% annualy from 1956~1989. A good steady growth. Then it all chaged when NAFTA passed. Then the stock market had it's greatest gains in history. Average was 60% growth in profits.

The trend lasted till the year 2000, At which time Corp. Managment was taking "Now get this" $4 Million~$50 Million a year in salary home. This does not include stock options. Profits are down because they are stacking it in there leather case and leaving with it!

The CEO of Disney took a average salary of $100 Million a year! Now how long can that last.

The cost for consumers went up. While labor cost and material cost went down.

" Ford said it best, If they can't afford to buy it. I can't afford to build it"

 

Where did you get those numbers? A baseline 4x4 - 5.4L F150 was $19K in 2003. WHAT DEALERSHIP?

Whaaaa? Dude everyone is subjest to ever increasing costs. That still doen't justifiy the absolute absurdity of a 400% INCREASE when nothing else in the economy has done that (except overinflated Enron stock LOL!). For instance, the electrical power industry must meet the same ever increasing standards for the emmsions from their gas and coal fired plants. HAS YOU ELECTRIC BILL GONE UP 400% in 20 years? Let me answer. NO!

Well All I can say to that is ....HALLELUYAH!!!!! it's about time. I hope GM, Ford, DC Toyota, etc....can't sell a new car to save their freekin' necks ....until they get the price of the damned things down to sane levels. It looks like they may be headed that way with these deep discounts. The brand new Expeditions here in OK are $6K off MSRP. Thats a good start....not quite there yet but a good start. I just saw where DC has priced all their 2003 Durangos at $8,000 off MSRP! They are eating the damned things and I hope that trend continues until they get the price to a point where middle America can actually afford to buy new cars again.

I'll agree with that. I just think the damned thing is way over priced.

Cody

 

Hell if it doesn't. The cost of labor absolutely MUST affect pricing. Whye else would they send so much of it to Mexico? I would like to add: In 1990 I had a good friend that worked on an assembly line in a GM plant in Indianna. He was a "master machinist" whatever the hell that is. All I know is he was making $109K per year!!! That's 109 with 3 zeros on the end!!!! And that is rediculous ofr any assembly line worker...I don;t give a flip if he can raise the dead. It absurd. My doctor in 1990 was NOT making 109,000 dollars. This simply goes to shows the disgusting amount of influence a union can have on labor costs. Now tell me that doesn't affect pricing? doh!

Who's "they"? Probably a pro-union comsumer group. I have no doubt that the Big Three have made enormous profits. But labor cost are NO doubt out of site in the US. The reason the Big Three have had such huge profits is because they have driven the price of new cars through the sky and stupid people that can't really afford it pawn their children's future simply so they can drive a "new car".


I can totally believe that. Not only is organized labor a rip....but the king dings of "ripdom" is the corporate headknockers....ie ENRON...WORLDCOM.

As long as stupid people (ie stockholders) allow it. Vote the damned boards out by PROXY and start fresh!!!! This is precisely why I do NOT play stocks.

But it won't ened. People are stupid. Look at the idiot politicians people keep putting in office term after term. I'll say it again. People are stupid. Anybody that will pay even close to retail pricve for a new car or truck is STUPID. Plain and simply. These are the same people that put our leaders in office. These are the same people that own stock in Disney and allow Eisner and his board of yes men to rape the damned thing. Stupid people.


Hmmmm....Henry must have been referring to his work force. Only UAW types that make absurd wages and Corporate CEOs can afford new cars. The fact is PEOPLE in general cannot afford to 'buy it'(as Henry so eloquently stated). Today people are simply in a constant state of debt. They ARE NOT buying cars. They are NOT owning cars. They are leasing them. In reality they can't afford to buy them because there price is TOO HIGH!.

I talked to the general manager of a large dealership in OKC a few weeks ago. He was twisting my arm to buy a brand new car. I said "you gotta be kidding". I went on my tirade about the cost of new cars and how they are over priced. Believe it or not he agreed with me. He said 9 of every 10 people that come to the dealership are "upside down" in their car finances. That means they owe more on the car than what it's worth. Think about it people. 90%!!! of the public is in this jam. That is unprecedented in our nations history. And it's alll because cars are TOO HIGH...and people are stupid.

The minute you drive that thing off the lot it has lost thousands in value. Even though you've only used it a few seconds it looses seven, eight, even ten thousand dollars simply vanish because it's been titled. Why? This is insane.

Car payments today rival that of a house! This is another sad fact. If you "buy" a car to own the payments are extremely stiff. So many people do what comes natural. They become stupid. They lease. Every single individual I personally know that has leased a car has gotten their collective financial asses whipped. That's about 12 people. (I don't hang around too many stupid people so I only personally know 12 or so). However I am certain there are thousands of people doing this. How long can this trend continue without severe consequences to the economy?

How can a car payment rival that of a house especially considering they now will finance the OPORPOS for 6-7 years! How? Let me answer. It's real simple. The price of new cars and trucks are WAY WAY too high compared to everything else in this economy.

Seriously

Cody

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ExpyCody2
[B]Hell if it doesn't. The cost of labor absolutely MUST affect pricing. Whye else would they send so much of it to Mexico? I would like to add: In 1990 I had a good friend that worked on an assembly line in a GM plant in Indianna. He was a "master machinist" whatever the hell that is. All I know is he was making $109K per year!!! That's 109 with 3 zeros on the end!!!! And that is rediculous ofr any assembly line worker...I don;t give a flip if he can raise the dead. It absurd. My doctor in 1990 was NOT making 109,000 dollars. This simply goes to shows the disgusting amount of influence a union can have on labor costs. Now tell me that doesn't affect pricing? doh!


The cost of labor had nothing to do with retail prices! In the 1990's cost went down, Not up! The labor was "Cut" from the work force, And replaced by import parts manufactor's.

You see the samething with American Airlines right now. The salary for Labor went up Average of 3%. A employee of 20 years makes average 45k a year. Health care cost is what killed them. It went up 30% in 2 years. Why do you think your providers change every year. The Health care companys or like tose 3rd party warranty scams. When it gets close to having to pay they drop you...

And don't say Lawyers are the cause. The average law suit is settled under $3000.00, They pay more to fight them then to settle a real case.

Here's what happened. Now the economy is in the tank. I would ask were is all the capatial going to come from? We invested so much in China'a growth we ahve no cash left to fund anything here. The returns they are going to get from now on will be very low. We the USA buy 70% of all goods produced. Now if there is no growth in salary or jobs, Who is going to buy the stuff?

 

Let's assume your right. Answer these two questions:

1- If not for labor then why in the hell have cars gotten so absurdly expensive? (and you can't blame a 400% increase on emissions and CAFE standards alone).

2- If the economy is in the tank how are people buying these OPORPOS? How do people continue buying and building $300,000 - $500,000 homes? Because they are building them here in OK just as fast as they can raise them...seriously. If there is a busted economy it's not evident here.

Cody

 

I had a 93 f150 with the 5.8 (351) and and pulled a liteweight
travel trailer that weighed under 4000 lbs that was 24 ft long.
The truck got only 9 mpg pulling that tralier and the truck struggled pulling with 3.55 gears. I now have a 2000 f150 with the 5.4 with 3.55 gears, pulling a 30 ft trailer that weighs 5100 lbs
and this truck gets 11.6 mpg. This is not rocket science to me which is the better engine.

 

true except, how many miles did your 93 have on it and what transmission did it have? what does your new truck have for a transmission?

 

How long will the 5.4 last? Mine is making death rattles at 55,000 miles. A compromised design. Small bore, short piston skirt, ohc, etc. Ford could have done much better. They didn't. Goodbye over hyped crap. Hello pushrods.

 

the 93 f150 had 84000+ miles on it and had the aod trans.
the 2000 f150 has the eod trans. the eod is a better trans.

 

Well there's a difference, throw a 5 speed behind both of em and see what they do. I don't know much about automatics but I would bet the newer tranny was much stronger for towing than the old AOD ( POS in opinion). Also unless I am wrong the 5.4 makes 50 some more ft lbs than the old 5.8. But Do you think the 5.4 will outlast the tried and true 5.8

 

Only time will tell if the 5.4 last as long. The 5.4 is stronger than
the 5.8 I had in my 93, but I also had a 70 Cougar that that had
a 351C that only lasted 4 years, 60000+ miles, spun the main bearings., and that car was really babied. The 5.8 is like the 7.3
Powerstroke. It is tried and true and proven. Will the new 6.0
last and perform like the old tried and proven engine? Only time
and proper maintenance will tell. I had a lot of electronic probs
with my 93, it took nearly 2 years in and out of the shop to get
them all fixed while the truck was under warranty and out of warranty. I have 35000 miles on this truck and half of them are towing miles. There is not a single rattle in that engine. Only time will tell how good this engine is.