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Problems with shift on the fly, Front hubs?
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Problems with shift on the fly, Front hubs?
I am working on a project at Federal Mogul regarding the front vacuum controlled hub locks for AWD F-250, F-350 vehicles. The front outer wheel seal has been identified as the culprit. I want to redesign the seal so that can over-come some of the mis-givings of the O.E. part, which is extremely difficult to install right, thus causing vacuum leaks, and no AWD.
I am very interested in any and all comments.
David Rupp
Product Engineer
Aftermarket Seals
Federal Mogul Corporation
I am very interested in any and all comments.
David Rupp
Product Engineer
Aftermarket Seals
Federal Mogul Corporation
Last edited by Federal Mogul Dave; May 18, 2010 at 07:03 AM. Reason: Spelling error
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It is the auto hub seal. The current O.E. part must be pressed onto the shaft, then slid into the spindle. Problem is, the metal ID is very hard to install square to the shaft, any mis-alignment may cause a vacuum leak, which affects the performance of the shift on the fly AWD. All told, to replace the seal is about 4 hours work (minimum)
Hotshot
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,398
Likes: 317
From: Whittier, CA
Mine have started to leak in the last few months. Just about everyone who has that system has hub problems eventually, and a large percentage of them get change out to manual units.
It would be so nice if someone could offer a better replacement system. But I think these things fail in a number of different areas and it sounds like you are focusing on only one.
It would be so nice if someone could offer a better replacement system. But I think these things fail in a number of different areas and it sounds like you are focusing on only one.
Hotshot
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,398
Likes: 317
From: Whittier, CA
Not just '05, it's the same system back to at least '99, and as far as I know it is the same in the new '11. It is one of our big complaints, that Ford would ignore such a universal problem for so many years. They just keep on using the same old crap.
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I bought a whole front axle for engineering analysis.
Federal Mogul buys the O.E. seal for distribution with our axles kits, which has a metal ID and OD. The alignment of the seal to shaft is critical. In our facility in Chicago, we installed the O.E. seal using a fixture and a hydraulic press, and had a hard time installing correctly. We feel that the seal may leak overtime, due to corrosion (which we saw upon dis-assembly).
I am trying to understand thru people like you how bad the situation is?
We are currently developing a Rubber I.D. and O.D. seal which will be easier to install, and be able to absorb minor imperfections of the shaft and bore, and provide a better sealing system.
Federal Mogul buys the O.E. seal for distribution with our axles kits, which has a metal ID and OD. The alignment of the seal to shaft is critical. In our facility in Chicago, we installed the O.E. seal using a fixture and a hydraulic press, and had a hard time installing correctly. We feel that the seal may leak overtime, due to corrosion (which we saw upon dis-assembly).
I am trying to understand thru people like you how bad the situation is?
We are currently developing a Rubber I.D. and O.D. seal which will be easier to install, and be able to absorb minor imperfections of the shaft and bore, and provide a better sealing system.
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The seal is a Forsheda Seal. There was a patent on the seal up unitl last year. Federal-Mogul is marketing a new "Uni-teck" design for many applications including this one which will employ:
1. A hand installable seal
2. A labyrinth seal path for dirt exclusion
3. A unitizied design for simplicity
Many of these features are currently being used in our Commercial Vehicle Oil Bath Seals used on 18 wheelers. In the Oil Bath Seal line, were are considered "Best in Class". FYI...The Oil Bath Seals are sold thru National Oil Seals, which is part of Federal-Mogul.
We will begin testing the O.E. seals shortly to see if we can improve on this "old" design.
1. A hand installable seal
2. A labyrinth seal path for dirt exclusion
3. A unitizied design for simplicity
Many of these features are currently being used in our Commercial Vehicle Oil Bath Seals used on 18 wheelers. In the Oil Bath Seal line, were are considered "Best in Class". FYI...The Oil Bath Seals are sold thru National Oil Seals, which is part of Federal-Mogul.
We will begin testing the O.E. seals shortly to see if we can improve on this "old" design.
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Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Round Rock, TX
I think a lot of us avoid/fix the problem when we inevitably end up replacing our ball joints. I suspect the BJ's go before before the seal would go out. I bought this tool to install my new motorcraft seal, it seems to have worked just fine OTC 6695 Ford Axle Shaft Seal Installer
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 177
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From: Boston
Ohh that axle - wheel bearing oil seal ($55 list), thanks for the reference point Mike. Makes sence now.
There is a layer of compound on the seal inner that contacts the axle, it's a very tight fit, requiring it to be kept very perpendicular going on. The tool (or a homemade steel flange version) should work fine. I expect the action of impact force might play better that a pressure pressing action with that compound in the mix Dave.
Are new seals leaking or old ones? I would think there is a market for easier to install, higher performance seals!
ncon
There is a layer of compound on the seal inner that contacts the axle, it's a very tight fit, requiring it to be kept very perpendicular going on. The tool (or a homemade steel flange version) should work fine. I expect the action of impact force might play better that a pressure pressing action with that compound in the mix Dave.
Are new seals leaking or old ones? I would think there is a market for easier to install, higher performance seals!
ncon
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The coating on the ID of the part is a sealant used during installation. Within the seal industry it is called numerous tradenames such as Boretite. This particular seal has an ID pressfit to shaft of 0.017" on the diameter. The force needed for installation is over 2500 lbs. The seals we recovered from the used axle showed definate signs of "seal ****" , that is the seal was not installed perpendiclar to the shaft. And rust on the ID surface propogating nearly thru to allow an air path to disable the vacuum acuation of the AWD.
We discovered the issue because of service related issues with a ball-joint replacement. Federal-Mogul also owns MOGG, which makes ball joints. We are creating a Rubber ID/OD seal for the application.
We discovered the issue because of service related issues with a ball-joint replacement. Federal-Mogul also owns MOGG, which makes ball joints. We are creating a Rubber ID/OD seal for the application.
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