You would probably find more people willing to particpate in the HHO madness if you try here: Water4Gas - Page 15 - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums

I go there every once in a while just to make me smile...

 

People in that thread and the OP can answer all their questions about HHO scams if they research "polar covalent bonding". Then they'll see the real science behind electrolysis, and why HHO kits aren't applicable for vehicular useage.

 

That is a very reasonable and accurate description of what may be going on.

And in case any of you skeptics missed this in the first post:

"Here's the big kicker that's making all of this hard to judge. We can get decent mileage figures on the highway from one gas station to the next, but not for farm use. Farm use gets way less mileage due to long-term idleing, towing and use of 4WD. Averages for that type of driving are from 8.5-11 mpg, mostly right around 10mpg. I think we're going to have to monitor diesel usage by engine hours moreso than mileage. There has not been any noticeable increase in mileage with or without the DE or DE plus HHO in that situation."

 

The misconception is that you have to tune a diesel for HHO. That simply isn't true. Fueling is controlled by your right foot. If you introduce more fuel via something like propane, the result is that you use less throttle.

In other words, if you really want to test the HHO kit, ditch the foolers and boxes, and run stock tuning.

 

While the electrolyzer is wired to only be turned on thru the power switch on the DE, it is possible to run at 100% rich (basically stock tune). Even when doing that, there is little or no difference in mileage during "farm" use or off-highway. We will consider doing that on a road test.

One of the things we are trying to measure is the actual "gas" output of the unit when drawing 25 amps. Crude setups using a 600ml plastic soda bottle with the top cut off, filled with water and suspended under water with a hose running from the unit are showing about 0.8-1.0 liter/ 60 seconds.

 

Here's the thing. At low speeds or even at idle, the engine is using less air. This means that whatever HHO you are generating, you're getting as rich of an HHO mix as possible.

In other words, HHO kits aren't regulated like propane. They don't add additional gas at higher RPM's or boost levels. Do you see what I'm saying?

If you can't see fuel consumption decrease at low engine speeds or at idle, you certainly won't see fuel consumption decrease when you're at higher RPM's since you aren't generating any more HHO than you were at idle. Simply put, there's not enough HHO, as I'll explain in regards to the second half of your post.....

The problem is that at 25 amps, you won't generate nearly as much HHO as is required to put a dent in mileage. As I mentioned earlier, it takes 1500 amps to generate enough HHO to give a 40% mileage increase on a 4-cylinder gas engine. Now consider that a diesel, especially a 6.0L, consumes much much much more airflow than a gas engine. Can you see where the problem is? There is too little HHO, and it's far too diluted with the rest of the intake charge to make any difference.

There are videos on Youtube of people idling a lawnmower with HHO hooked up to a battery. The catch is they are drawing about 200 amps, killing the battery in a short amount of time. This of course is not practical for real world vehicle applications, as it wouldn't do any good to drain your batteries while driving down the highway.

Like I said, you can experiment with HHO, but the physics are against you, and it won't work. Just be prepared for disappointment.

 

I understand what you are stating. Part of the problem I see in getting an accurate comparison of use with or without the HHo kit and DE for "farm" use is the type of driving conditions. While there are long periods of idle (vs turning off the engine and re-starting it like you would for a gas motor), there are also periods of low-speed driving under 30 mph. The big fuel consumption occurs when using 4WD or when pulling a loaded trailer short distances. This truck is used for purposes such as pull-starting a road grader and other farm equipment, and towing an 18-wheeler flatbed loaded with round haybales. There can be as much as 20-25 tons of weight on that trailer, but 4Lo will pull it.

I think this is the reason the daily mileage in this situation is around 10 mpg, vs highway mileage of 16 mpg. At a highway speed of 55 mph, the rpm's are at 1650 with Cruise Control on. This is certainly more rpm's than at idle of 850. Why is the mileage better on the highway then, than at low-speed or idle? The engine is still running in both situations, but we really need to eliminate any use of 4WD or towing heavy objects to get an equal comparison, or do the same amount of work per hour. The engine is running for 12 hours a day, and adding up about 150 miles on farm. And that uses about 15 gallons of fuel for 10 mpg. Drive 150 miles on the hwy for 3 hours, using 10 gallons of fuel for 15 mpg.

One difference we have noticed when leaning out the motor with the DE. GO more than 10% lean, and you have a noticeable loss in power and turbo boost. Hooking up the HHO generator to the intake air tube doesn't add any noticeable power increase or change in RPM's. The mileage also drops back down to regular levels or lower than 16 mpg. Being under-powered is not desirable, either. The mileage increases bewtween 20-25 mpg have all occurred under 10% lean, when no engine codes appear, and no big drop in "seat-of-the-pants" feel in power or big drop in turbo boost.

 

That's why I used the term "fuel consumption". MPG's require you to drive distances. Since idling results in zero miles driven, yet fuel is being consumed even at idle, there's a bit hit on MPG's when you calculate them out. Same goes for driving short distances in 4wd. The transfer case is a multiplier, so if you are in 4low driving around, you're at higher RPM's for a lower speed of travel. Again, MPG's take a hit.

A simple test would be too hook up a scan tool and monitor injection pulsewidth. See what the pulsewidth is at idle, then turn on the HHO. If pulsewidth remains the same, the HHO is not doing anything. If pulsewidth drops, it means fuel consumption is dropping.

It's because you're using foolers to make the PCM think that it needs to pull back fuel. Go far enough, and you'll start to decrease power output as you saw.

You can pull back some fuel to increase mileage without taking a drastic hit on power. But in almost every case, some power loss is still occuring, even if you don't quite feel it.

 

I have further results to post from this weekend. On Saturday, we took a lomg trip to the city to get a test with more miles. We drove 231 miles , with a total driving time of about 7 hours using 12.7 gals diesel. The first 120 miles was mostly hwy for 3 hours, then a 1-1/2 hours stop with the engine off. THe next 45 miles were in city traffic, mostly under 30 mph, for another 1-1/2 hours. Another long stop for 1 hour, then the remaining 65 miles took 2-1/2 hours. This mix of city and highway driving resulted in 18.2 mpg. That's still slightly better than any previous hwy miles and an improvement over the 13-15 mpg average for the type of road driving. This was all done with the HHO gen on and the DE set at 10% lean, CC set at 55 mph when allowed.

We conducted a few more short-mile hwy tests tonight, back to back, with the following results:

Stock tune, no HHO and no DE - 32.6 mi. @ 2.2 gal = 14.8 mpg

With HHO, DE set at 0% lean - 35.1 mi. @ 1.6 gal = 21.7 mpg

With HHO, DE set at 5% lean - 29.9 mi. @ 0.8 gal = 35.7 mpg

With HHO, DE set at 10% lean - 35.1 mi. @ 1.5 gal = 23.4 mpg

With HHO, DE set at 15% lean - 48.4 mi @ 3.9 gal = 12.5 mpg

 

I picked up a SCT Xcal3 Flash tuner this past week, and have been using it just for data logging purposes. We are making a difference with the HHo gen and DE, despite what you skeptics argue. Another long trip similar to the last one with city/ hwy driving got 19.6 mpg, and just today another hwy trip got 28.0 mpg. After repairing a bad leak around the lid of the electrolyser, the gas production is up around 1-8-2.0LPM at 25amps. I may see if I can post some data logs over at Supermotors, and post up a link to that info.

 

Check this out: Hydrogen boosts Beloit -- GazetteXtra

Made the trip last summer, met Chris & Dan. These guys are making it work in the real world. But very labor intensive one Tech comes in early every day to check every unit prior to leaving the shop.
In my world @ The City O DSM we could not deicate a man to babysit these systems. But I did review real world data they are making it work....
I was impressed with a refuse truck that gets almost 5 mpg compaired to our 2 to 3 MPG. both units powered by 330 Hp cummins.........

 

IABill, thanks for posting that link to anothe successful HHO setup. I agree that the Smack Booster designs like the one we're using on the '07 F-350 are not as efficient and may need more 'babysitting' or attention than a dry cell system. But we continue to get good results and improvement in highway mileage.

Now, on to the meat & taters. We continue to collect some data logs using the SCT Xcal3. There is a limit to the PID's that it will log, but there are several more in the SCT LiveLink software program I have on the laptop. Not all of the "FORDS" PID's will work, nor will all of the ones for the ECU strategy (VCXF4). Each time I try to data log, I will get some to work but not the next time. I do have a list that I'm compiling from several data logs, some from the X3 and some from the LiveLink:

At IDLE:

Engine RPM = 690rpm
MAP/ Intake Manifold Pressure = 102.5 kpa
Barometric Pressure = 100.5kpa
FPW/ Injector Pulse Width = 51 [msec?]
DIT/ Diesel Ignition Timing (X3 only) = -4.0 (note this reads 6.71E+007)
ICP/ Injection Control Pressure = 4.0 [psi]
BST/ Turbo Boost = 0.3 psi
ICP Counts = 174
ICP Duty Cycle = 24%
MAF voltage = 1.4v
MAP voltage = 1.3v
VSS/ Vehicle Speed = 0mph

Note that the FPW in milliseconds should read about 1.0 msec, the ICP is off, and the DIT should read -4.0. For whatever reason, the LiveLink software converts the FPW to 51, and the DIT to 6.71E+007/ Those numbers do not change much at all at idle. The X3 will not read FPW, but will read BST

We now also have a Scan Guage II, and have been using it both for data logging and mpg comparisons (estimated by the SGII vs. actual). Here is a few more PID's from this:

ICP = 585 psi
FPW = 1.04 msec
LOD/ Engine Load = 26%
MAP = 101 kpa

I was asked by a few folks to provide O2 sensor data, but I don't think there are any on the 6.0L diesel and there are no PID's for it on either device or in the software. IF there is a similar sensor such as EGP (Exhaust Back Pressure) or other that will help inthe datalogging, I will add it to the list.

There appears to be little to no change in these PID's at idle with the stock tune and with the DE turned on at 100% rich and just adding the HHO gas. In one test of the FPW, there is a slight, random variation from 55 to 47. This is roughly equal to 1.14-1.12 on the SGII. In either case, it seems like a very small change but this is at idle. There is also a slight change in MAF voltage, from 1.3v to 1.6v.

There is a noticeable change in DIT from -4.0 down toward 0.0, a drop in both MAP kpa and voltage, and a drop in Boost psi when leaning out the DE. No change in FPW, ICP or LOD.

I planned to upload some of the runs onto my Supermotors (SFO) gallery, and post a link for anyone interested in the actual logs. SFO does not allow uploads of a .csv file, so I need to convert these to a .jpg file or .pdf file, or find another method. I do not even see a way to upload any files here at FTE. JSM84

 

does this count as spam so we can ask the mods to shut this guy up yet?

 

What the hell are you talking about? I'm posting real data, and do not know if it's showing positive results or not. Stay out of my thead if you have nothing to contribute.

 

We can only hope.........

From Bill's link: "And how does hydrogen improve gas mileage?

Unleaded gasoline engines are only about 20 percent efficient. That means the engine is burning only one-fifth of the gasoline pumped into the vehicle; the rest leaves as exhaust through the tailpipe, Lutz said.

But the introduction of hydrogen makes engines burn 100 percent efficient. Hydrogen is a volatile gas, and when it's added to the combustion cycle, it forces everything to burn. That means more miles per gallon and fewer emissions, Lutz said."

Complete and utter Bull Squat