Mild 360: hydraulic or solid lifter setup?
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Round Rock, TX
Mild 360: hydraulic or solid lifter setup?
OK, I've decided to skip out on swapping in a 390 crank and rods on my 360 rebuild. However, I've been getting a lot of advide saying that I should convert to a solid lifter setup. I know that I've got to make some oiling mods in order to do this, but don't I also need to go to adjustable rocker arm assemblies? And I'm sure that after milling the heads and the deck, I'm going to have to have the machinist help me determine the correct pushrod lengths.
Does anybody have any advice/suggestions on whether to stick with a hydraulic setup or go with the mechanical setup? I understand that the throttle response is supposed to be much better with the solid setup. Also, are there any additional considerations that I need to make when considering this?
Does anybody have any advice/suggestions on whether to stick with a hydraulic setup or go with the mechanical setup? I understand that the throttle response is supposed to be much better with the solid setup. Also, are there any additional considerations that I need to make when considering this?
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,624
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From: Missouri
Mild 360: hydraulic or solid lifter setup?
You have been given pretty good info. Solid cams make more on the bottom end and more on the top than hydraulics and the top end power is usually made at a little less RPM. This is comparing cams of the same duration and LCA. You kind of have a limited selection of mild solid cams though. Thye do require adjustments periodically therefore an adjustable setup is necessary in all practicality. They are noisy. Most people who want an engine they can drop in and run forever with little maintenance go with hydraulics.
Last edited by Ratsmoker; Jan 23, 2003 at 09:45 PM.
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Round Rock, TX
Mild 360: hydraulic or solid lifter setup?
Since I'm getting tired of turning wrenches on the truck, I may just go with a hydraulic setup. However, the solid setup certainly is tempting.
I have a few more questions in the event that I stick with a hydraulic setup (and some general questions):
Should I replace the rocker shaft assemblies during this rebuild?
If I go hydraulic but have the deck milled, do I need to select shorter pushrods or go with stock rods? Additionally, do I need to have the valve seat heights modified to accomodate the milling?
Are there any other major valvetrain considerations that I need to make? I've already got the intake, carb, ignition, and bottom end all figured out (I think), so I'm left with valvetrain choices at this point.
Thanks to everybody who's helped out.
I have a few more questions in the event that I stick with a hydraulic setup (and some general questions):
Should I replace the rocker shaft assemblies during this rebuild?
If I go hydraulic but have the deck milled, do I need to select shorter pushrods or go with stock rods? Additionally, do I need to have the valve seat heights modified to accomodate the milling?
Are there any other major valvetrain considerations that I need to make? I've already got the intake, carb, ignition, and bottom end all figured out (I think), so I'm left with valvetrain choices at this point.
Thanks to everybody who's helped out.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 3,565
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From: Sun River St. George
Mild 360: hydraulic or solid lifter setup?
Bigric, Think about this for a minute! You have the engine apart, block and crank work done. All that remains is reassembly. Or! Do we still have a chance to change your mind about the 390? Because a bone stock 390 crank, rods and pistons will not set you back that much. You are already there and are going to spend about the same amount of money for a 360 anyway! Later you can install a camshaft, lifters and adjustable rockers (and you should). I think getting the bottom of the engine right the first time is critical. Then the heads followed by whatever other goodies you can afford. Spend your money on the block and heads now and later you can do a camshaft swap on a week end. A stock 390 will pull nicely and once the truck is back up and runing you can continue to improve on what you have. A bone stock 360 with oiling mods and a balanced rotating assembly is nice as well. Personally I'd avoid the solid lifter camshaft, roller rockers, headers and big carburetor for now.
William in Atlanta
William in Atlanta
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Round Rock, TX
Mild 360: hydraulic or solid lifter setup?
Thanks for the advice. I'll price out the 390 setup and see where it falls inline with my budget. You mentioned replacing the pistons; is that necessary, or is it just the crank and rods that I need to replace?
As it stands right now, my cam is shot, so I've got to replace it now anyway. And the concensus seems to be that the 140 lb springs that helped do the cam in will also have damaged the rocker arm shafts, so I've got to spend some money replacing those as well. So, unfortunately, I've got to spend on the top end now as well. The 390 is tempting, especially since the engine is out and completely torn down, but I've gotta make this fit in a poor student budget.
I want something that I can drop in and just drive, so the hydraulic cam is tempting, but the solid setup seems to have its pluses as well...
As it stands right now, my cam is shot, so I've got to replace it now anyway. And the concensus seems to be that the 140 lb springs that helped do the cam in will also have damaged the rocker arm shafts, so I've got to spend some money replacing those as well. So, unfortunately, I've got to spend on the top end now as well. The 390 is tempting, especially since the engine is out and completely torn down, but I've gotta make this fit in a poor student budget.
I want something that I can drop in and just drive, so the hydraulic cam is tempting, but the solid setup seems to have its pluses as well...
Junior User
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: albany ga
Mild 360: hydraulic or solid lifter setup?
personally i don't think that it is neccesary to put the 390 crank and rods in unless you need more pulling power because if it is a daily driver you could leave the 360 crank and rods in and not notice much of a difference.
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,624
Likes: 8
From: Missouri
Mild 360: hydraulic or solid lifter setup?
New rocker shafts can be bought for 20 bucks a piece from autozone. They are just as good as stock. Rocker stands are the pain to find. I don't know that anyone makes stock stands. There are some pricey aftermarket ones out there. It is going to probably take some effort getting your rocker arms off of the old shaft. If I were still in the USA I would send you a pair of assemblys that I have for free. You should be able to find some good assemblies at the junkyard. Check for wear where the pushrods meet the rocker. They will usually wear in an oblong pattern. Good luck man. Those springs were 140 pounds closed preessure?? That is 20 more lbs than the springs on my edel heads.
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Logistics Pro
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: suburban atlanta
Mild 360: hydraulic or solid lifter setup?
OK, for my 32 cents worth: Hydraulic lifters can do just as much damage as solids. Depends on the cam. You can generally get a 'sharper' lift on a hydraulic cam as the oil will buffer the ramp a little bit. They develop no more or no less horsepower as low RPMs and no more or less HP at high RPMs as they are just moving valves open and closed. A solid lifter cam & lifter combo will give you a higher RPM range than hydraulic lifters & cam. The HP and torque are dependent on the cam profile. Solid lifters will not pump up at hight RPM, but if your setup is what you want, you don't want high RPM any way. Cubes are king. Thats why you have a boat anchor V8...........
tom
tom
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Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,624
Likes: 8
From: Missouri
Mild 360: hydraulic or solid lifter setup?
I'm sorry Tom. All the cam manufacturers, desktop dyno and I disagree with you pretty much 100% here. The actual lobe on solid cams is generally more aggresive than on hydraulics. The valves do open faster therefore creating more power. This is why you see such high lifts on solid cams vs. hyd. ones per degree of duration. The cam I have in my truck is the most agressive hydraulic cam I have ever seen and it seems to have a natural tick to it. Its barely noticable but I think that it is pretty much maxed out for lift. Solid cams of the same duration and LCA almost always make more bottom end power and the same or more peak power at a lower RPM. The only thing limiting RPMs with a mech cam is spring pressure. THe lifters can be a big factor with hyd. cams. Most people prefer hyd cams in their daily drivers. The difference between the two isn't mind boggling but there is a distinct difference.
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Round Rock, TX
Mild 360: hydraulic or solid lifter setup?
Thanks, and now a question about the rocker shafts: would it be acceptable practice to replace the rocker shafts and the rockers and keep the stands and spacer springs? Ratsmoker, you mentioned there being trouble finding the stands, but do they generally need to be replaced?
Also, it looks like I may be getting a '73 F100 parts truck with a 390; is it acceptable to yank the valve springs, retainers, etc. from this motor for use in mine, or is it just a good idea to get fresh springs for this job?
Again, thanks to everybody who's contributed. I'll be taking the motor to a different machine shop to do all the work now, and I've gotten some really valuable information from everybody here.
Also, it looks like I may be getting a '73 F100 parts truck with a 390; is it acceptable to yank the valve springs, retainers, etc. from this motor for use in mine, or is it just a good idea to get fresh springs for this job?
Again, thanks to everybody who's contributed. I'll be taking the motor to a different machine shop to do all the work now, and I've gotten some really valuable information from everybody here.
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,624
Likes: 8
From: Missouri
Mild 360: hydraulic or solid lifter setup?
Come to think of it I did get new OEM rocker stands once from DSC motorsport. Used stands will work fine depending on how big the cam is. I would get new springs, retainers and locks recommended by the cam manufacturer for which ever cam you choose. A lot of what you need to choose is dependent upon your cam. With that info we can give much better advice. My cam will make a pile of rubble out of stock parts (I learned this the hard way) and its really not that big.
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Round Rock, TX
Mild 360: hydraulic or solid lifter setup?
The good folks at AutoZone tell me that the rocker shafts are a dealer item. Actually, that was after I convinced them that I wasn't looking for shock absorbers. Guess I'll be calling up DSC; they seem to have a great selection of parts for these motors. Ratsmoker, was this a while back that you were able to get shafts from AutoZone, or do you happen to have their part number for it? If your paperwork is anything like mine, you probably don't have the foggiest idea where that information is actually, so don't worry about it. Unless it really is right there...
Thanks for the advice everbody.
Thanks for the advice everbody.
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,624
Likes: 8
From: Missouri
Mild 360: hydraulic or solid lifter setup?
MRS-641 is the autozone part number. They will always tell you it is a dealer only item when they don't know what the heck they are looking for. The price took a huge jump. They are $21.99 now. I got this right from their website. If they want to know what vehicle you have when you give them the part number just ask to be helped by someone that knows how to look up a part by the number. And whether the vehicle has air conditioning or not doesn't matter! 
One more thing. The autozone brand is melling and the DSC brand is sealed power. I have broken them both so I think they are pretty much the same.
One more thing. The autozone brand is melling and the DSC brand is sealed power. I have broken them both so I think they are pretty much the same.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,907
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From: suburban atlanta
Mild 360: hydraulic or solid lifter setup?
I know I READ that hydraulics could be ramped quicker than mech tappets 'cuz the hydraulic would always be in contact with the lobe, and thus would not have the accelerated contact with the cam face. And thus could have a quicker valve open. Now, I can't tell you where, but it made sense at the time. Maybe this was the old way of doing it as it seems it was talking about a 289 engine and the cam and lifters combinations you could use. If you ground an aggressive solid cam, the lifters HAD to have an acceleration ramp to take up the slack 'slowly' or it would be short lived...
I would get hydraulics mostly because of the maintenance factor, tho it is enjoyable to adjust valves. Most of the old cars I used to work on had a depression worn in the rocker arm from the valve tip, made it hard to adjust.
Either way, sounds like a load of fun.
tom
I would get hydraulics mostly because of the maintenance factor, tho it is enjoyable to adjust valves. Most of the old cars I used to work on had a depression worn in the rocker arm from the valve tip, made it hard to adjust.
Either way, sounds like a load of fun.
tom
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Fleet Mechanic
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From: Round Rock, TX
Mild 360: hydraulic or solid lifter setup?
OK, I found a mild Crane dual-pattern hydraulic. It's from their PowerMax, which they advertise for applications for everything including turbocharging, which of course I'm not messing with. Does this sound like a reasonable cam for what I'm trying to achieve:
Advertised duration: 260 intake/272 exhaust
Duration at .050 in. cam lift: 204 intake/216 exhaust
Gross valve lift: .501 in. intake/.533 in. exhaust
Lobe separation: 112 degrees
Basic rpm range: 1,500 to 4,500
Smooth idle, daily usage, off-road, towing, and economy, also mild turbocharging
Cruise rpm: 2,200 to 2,600
Recommended compression ratio: 8:1 to 9.5:1
The RPM range, cruise RPM, and compression ratios seem to fit right in with my application, so this sounds reasonable to me. Once I get this cam thing nailed down, I believe I've got everything else laid out for the build, unless I get that parts truck with the 390, but this cam should work fine with that crank as well I believe. I'll be feeding it with a 600cfm Edelbrock on top of a Performer FE (not RPM) manifold.
Advertised duration: 260 intake/272 exhaust
Duration at .050 in. cam lift: 204 intake/216 exhaust
Gross valve lift: .501 in. intake/.533 in. exhaust
Lobe separation: 112 degrees
Basic rpm range: 1,500 to 4,500
Smooth idle, daily usage, off-road, towing, and economy, also mild turbocharging
Cruise rpm: 2,200 to 2,600
Recommended compression ratio: 8:1 to 9.5:1
The RPM range, cruise RPM, and compression ratios seem to fit right in with my application, so this sounds reasonable to me. Once I get this cam thing nailed down, I believe I've got everything else laid out for the build, unless I get that parts truck with the 390, but this cam should work fine with that crank as well I believe. I'll be feeding it with a 600cfm Edelbrock on top of a Performer FE (not RPM) manifold.