I know I probably been annoying some with all my questions but yes I have another one, It is out of confusion that I have this question. This older guy told me this "had a 1969 ford XL back in the day with the 429 11:1 4bbl motor it made bout 500tq and it had 2.80 gears.....that fricken thing would do 85mph in 1st gear at about 5200rpms................and if i nailed it from a dead stop it would just fricken fry the tires literally untill they burst.", now this has me confused because the stroker 420W I am wanting to do with a Xtreme energy street cam (600 - 4800 rpm power band) with 9.5:1 compression is estimated at 515 lbs of trq.

Problem is I am now I am concerned if I am going to have the issues he described with that much trq running through a FMX 3spd transmission (2.39:1 1st gear / 1.45:1 2nd gear / 1.00:1 3rd gear) on back to a 2.50:1 9" rear axle in a 4,000 lb car.

Personally I dont think I will but I did have a few guys tell me 500 lbs of trq will do alot of damage to the stock U-joints and alot of part breakage with that high of a rear axle ratio. If so only thing I can do is go with a stock displacement 351, the company I am going with only offers the 351W or the 420W using the 351W blocks.

If anyone could provide their experiance or provide help on this subject I would greatly appreciate it. My only option would be to keep a 351 cubic inch 351W in the car with the street cam listed above but I doubt I would go from 145hp to 312hp bumping compression from 8.5:1 up to 9.0:1 with stock heads, upgrading from a 351cfm 2V carb to a 600 cfm 4V carb, and swaping out for headers. I just dont see that big of a HP jump on that so I am starting to wonder if maybe this camquest 6 isnt providing an accurate power estimate. All I can do is list below what specs I do have and people can go from there.

Bore x Stroke : 4.040" x 4.10"
Connecting Rods : 6.20" chevrolet
Compression Ratio : 9.5:1
Heads : Ford Cast Iron with Larger Valves 1.94"/1.60"
Deck Heigth : 9.503"
Carburetor : 600 CFM Vac Secondary 4V
Manifold : Edelbrock Performer square bore dual plane
Headers : Hooker Full Length Super Competition Headers
Camshaft : 206*/212* @ 0.050" - 0.461"/0.474" Lift - 110 LSA Hyd Flat Tappet

Strange thing as you can see is I am not going for a drag engine just a stroker street engine and I really would hate to have to do as he said and go with some 3.30:1 gearing to eliminate bog (dont think I would have a bog since the camshaft is listed as working with stock trq converters and stock gearing) or to use traction enhancers such as traction bars or stickier tires, which I bet would be my luck and cause u-joint failiure.

 

As a reliable daily driver, don't go with the 420. It's a lot of stress on that engine to have that long of a stroke, plus it'll be thirsty. Why are you locked in to one company? There are options for smallblocks in between the 351 and the 420, or you could just go with something else.

 

Really? I read longer stroke engines wear less and last longer (the piston slows down as it approaches TDC and it stays halted at TDC for a longer period before changing direction to BDC), unless that is not true.

Besides that though I havent seen another company offer a kit that comes with the block and heads. Only kits I find are the rotating kit and you have to have a block. I dont plan on using my late 70`s smog block for this. Besides that though the camshaft I picked out says "Very Strong Trq / Excellent Miliage / Smooth Idle", sure its a bigger displacement but I surely dont think economy would be below 12 mpg city.

I was looking online and only thing I found was for $500 more I can get a 393 sbf crate engine rated at 500 hp and 580 lbs of trq, personally most people would jump on that for more power but my concern is sitting standing still burning the tires up if floored at a stand still with the 515 lbs of trq out of a stroker 420.

As far as the reliability goes I wouldnt really know, all I know is compression is 9.5:1 and all the other parts are OEM stock parts.

 

Between the deck height and stroke length you will have very short rods that wind up at a high angle, causing severe piston side loading and cylinder wall scuffing. This will lead to short ring life, excessive bore wear, and possible piston failure.
There have been a few Ford engines in the displacement range you are after, and all had a shorter stroke. The 400 had a 4" bore and 4" stroke and a 10.3" deck height, the 410 FE had a 4.05" bore and 3.98" stroke with a deck height of 10.17", the 428 was the same, the 427 had a 3.785" stroke with a 4.235" bore and the same deck height, the 460 used a 3.85" stroke and 10.322" deck height.
This article gives some insight into selecting a stroker kit for street use:
Ford 460 Stroker Piston Selection - Hot Rod Magazine

 

So the 6.20" rods are short? I thought they were rightly selected considering stock is 5.956". The Rod Ratio is 1.512 (6.200"/4.10" = 1.512)

I will check that article out though, I read a few articles as well the links are below to the ones I read so far.

Stroking the 351W

^^^^
"Eagle makes a high quality, affordable steel rod that works very well in this application. It is 6.200" long and features Chevy small block journals. Using this rod gives a very favorable 1.68 rod ratio and is just as happy revving to 6000 rpm in a mild street engine as it is at 8500 rpm in a 15:1 race engine. The rods clear the block with room to spare and no exotic crankshaft balancing is necessary."

"Revability with 4.00" or more stroke is also a concern, the lower rod ratios and subsequent rod angles can cause excessive piston skirt wear and slapping when cold that can sometimes sound severe."



Stroker Motors Explained - Stroker Engines | FordMuscle.com

^^^^
"The consensus amongst engine manufacturers is that a ratio of 1.50" is the lowest acceptable rod ratio for a street motor. Realistically, rod ratios between 1.65" - 1.80" are ideal. See the tables in the following section about stroker kits."

It appears this engine is at the lowest acceptable rod ratio for street use but I dont know if its even possible to squeeze a longer rod in the engine.

Which makes sense cause the stock engine has a rod ratio of 1.70:1 5.956 rod / 3.50" stroke. Hmmm I guess I should see if I could get a 351W block cheap enough that I can have it machined for a stroker kit, but would probably end up spending more than the $3,250 for the long block kit already machined and balanced. But at the bottom of the last link which a friend just provided to me via chat, it appears all strokers using the 351W are all 1.667:1 or numerically lower. The 383 stroker is 1.667:1 where as the worse is the 426 with a 1.469:1.

So with a rod ratio of 1.512:1 there should be expected wear so what should I expect miliage wise out of a engine like this? 100,000 miles? 150,000 miles? (Must say I do plan on running pure synthetic 10w30 motor oil as well as having the crank/rod/piston assembly custom balanced again using the balancer and the flexplate I am going to be using if that makes any difference to miliage considering the 1.512:1 rod ratio)




~Update~

I just read that article and got some while reading, this is what I dont get.

"For a cam, you should be looking for something over 0.600 lift with duration in the mid-250s or higher (at 0.050-inch tappet lift)"

I assume this pertains to a 460 being stroked out correct? cause surely a 351W taken to 420 cubes wouldnt require 0.600" + lift or duration 255+ cause last time I checked duration determins power band and with the gears I am running the 206/212 is about the hottest I would want to go with (2500 rpm is highway cruising speed) unless I plan on changing the axle ratio to something like 3.93`s that would require high rpm.

 

Right, the cam stuff applies mainly to the 460-based stroker, but the basics of that article apply to any stroker.
I know the general theory is "No replacement for displacement", but for DD duties reliability needs to be considered.

 

True I am wanting reliability as well as not dropping below 12 mpg city. Problem is I dont want to use my 78 block and heads, I want to start fresh with another block. That was why I picked the company I did they offer the long block kit in a stock stroke 351W or a 420W stroker.

Problem is though even if I go with a 383 stroker using the 351W I would still be around 1.667:1 rod ratio which is more to the ideal range than the 1.512:1 rod ratio.

Now this company does sell a 351W block bare but its overbored, doesnt say how much though and they want $725 for just the block. I guess it comes back to not being 100% sure. Every engine ive done was basically back stock, but I would like to improve trq considering the heavy nature of the vehicle (4,000 lbs) and the highly geared 9" rear axle (2.50:1) but I dont want to go with this 420W if I will experiance excessive tire spin nailing the throttle from a stand still or worse yet spend the $3,250 for the block kit and end up with a engine that is worn out at 50,000 miles.

Now besides that though I did plan on using all the oem parts from the special dura spark II module with the third plug plugged into a engine load sensor that adjusts timing based off vacuum, down to a oem dist. So reliability should be there but I just am not sure fully.

 

Just wanted to drop in and say that I enjoy reading about all of your various trials and tribulations.

Not to mention that you have one of the best user names on FTE

 

Yea, I tend to go overboard when i start getting into projects, last time I planned a engine rebuild for my 351W in the car now I ended up with a 500 hp engine that was ment to turn 2500 - 7000 rpm. Then I got smart (after it was pointed out to me) that with my gearing I wouldnt see those rpm`s other than on the highway.

This is probably the same way but I did atleast keep with a camshaft that was ment for stock trq converters and stock gears. Just probably going overboard on the displacement size. I am trying to keep cost down as much as possible and buying the 351W bare block from them at $727, I doubt I could get a stroker kit have it balanced and get the heads as well including double roller timing chain all valve train bits as well as the camshaft and not spend over $3,250 which is the cost of the long block kit.

Hell I had one guy tell me that he would estimate the engine would get more than 12 mpg city more like 15 - 18 mpg considering the low rpm the engine will be running and the stockish style camshaft with a more modern efficent design twist.

In the end I am more of a "go back like the factory built" than build up so strokers are all new to me on design and such.

 

I had a 1970 Galaxie 500 with the 300hp 351w, brand new engine when I got the car. It had a 2.75 rear end, and the crappiest dual exhaust I've ever seen. That car got 6-8mpg in town, but actually turned 22-25 on extended highway trips. I was not nice to the car, and it did spin pretty readily but it was controllable too.
The 393 stroker is a good engine. There is nothing wrong with starting with your block, different heads would probably be a good idea though. The block that company offers is a good deal if it's fully machined, there's quite a bit of work to that, and if you were to pick up an old 351w off your local Craigslist and then have the machine work done to it you'd probably be into it $1500.
I don't know if you looked at this company, but they offer a couple Windsor-based engines with a fully built turn-key option:
Ford Performance Engines, Ford Crate Motors, Ford Engines, Ford Motorsports
Ford Racing also offers a few crate engines in your range but I'd be shot for saying they're cheap.

 

Yea, my stocker 351W in the car is rated at 145bhp @ 4000 rpm and 200trq @ 2000 rpm. She just wont break the tires loose if you floor her from a stand still, she will hestiate alittle though. I guess thats why I was thinking with the heavy weight and 2.50 rear axle I should get up and off the line quick but if I floor her would have tire spin but not horrible. On the economy this engine is currently getting 15 - 18 city with 16.5 being the avg with a 351cfm 2V carb and the old factory late 70`s smog cam. I am thinking shouldnt get worse than 12 mpg city with the dual pattern modern compcams cam along with a 500 or 600 cfm 4V (comes out to 250 cfm - 300 cfm with the vac secondaries closed which is roughly same as stock).

I am checking proformance unlimited right now I came across their stroker listing on a search I am doing for 351W strokers. I am not sure if I would want to go with them, price that I am coming up with including headers and to buy the parts missing from the long block kit including oil pan,headers and valve covers I am looking at just over $5,000. They are wanting $8,500 for a turn key drop in 408-418 stroker.

lol I already looked at the ford racing crate engines, I even looked at their bare blocks and ended up with a $7,500 price tag for a 427 cid displacement out of a boss 351 block. I have since been told that is over kill and thinking about it, it really is for a street engine.

But I guess as you said I could always get their cheap block and go from there. Would be nice to know what over bore the cylinders are at, would help in knowing if a stroker kit offered would drop right in or if I would have to take the block in for more machine work.

 

The only thing the bore will affect is what pistons you order and the final displacement of the engine. Most of those CID numbers given for strokers assume a .030" overbore.

 

Correct, but I dont know if they got a 0.030" or a 0.040" overbore. The 420W is a 0.040" overbore with a option for $100 more to get a 0.030" overbore. I just wished P.A.W. had a email address so I could see if there was any way they could use the same block but instead of being 420W set up a block kit with heads for 383W which would be a 1.667:1 rod ratio, not much better than the 1.512:1 with the 420W but parents had a ford 400 in a 72 LTD and it had 120,000 miles on it when it was sold off and was still running fine. Rod ratio on that I figured up was in the 1.6:1 range, so I am starting to wonder if the 420 with 1.512:1 rod ratio would even make 100,000 miles.

My 2007 P.A.W. catalog has 3 different 351W`s listed in block kits, 351W stock, 355 (0.030" over), 357 (0.040" over), 360 (0.060" over), and the 420W (0.040" over + 4.10" stroke). Their website how ever doesnt list any kits other than the 351W stock and the 420W.

Now they do have on their site a 408 stroker crank kit or a 420 stroker crank kit for the same price. I assume the 408 stroker is a 0.030" over with the same 4.10" stroke. where as the 420 is 0.040" over.

I am checking out summit right now see if they have a stroker kit for the 351W to a 383. Maybe if I am lucky the only machine work required would be overboring the block if its not the right bore for the stroker kit. But it would cost more for machine work to clearance the stroker crank if the block has to be.



~update~

Did some figuring and this is what I come up with

P.A.W. overbored 351W block - $725
Eagle Stroker Kit (cast crank forged pistons) 383 CID - $1,279.95
Camshaft (one i picked out) - $358.95
Roller Rocker arms for above camshaft - $159.95
Pushrods for above camshaft - $25.95

Total - $2549.80

Now I still have to get the oil pump and heads where as the kit P.A.W. offered came with oem 69cc chamber heads with larger valves and a oil pump all machined and balanced for $3,250 (probably be closer to $3,500 to upgrade to the comp cams camshaft over the base Super Stock industries one) including the above. Personally I dont think I could get a pair of heads complete as well as have the rotating assembly balanced for less than $700.20, im sure the heads would be around $800 by themself.

I guess "most bang for my buck" would be the 420W but now with all this about excessive cylinder scuffing and piston ring wear I just dont know now. I am very close to scraping the idea and just going back stock and have a underpowered vehicle. Ford really did great in this case slapping a 145hp 200trq V8 into a 2 ton tank with 2.50:1 rear axle ratio.

Then theres the issue this guy I know in an automotive group that told me with 2.50:1 rear axle ratio and 500 - 515 lbs of trq at 2500 rpm I would just fry the tires till they pop if I nail the throttle from a stand still. Even said I would fry them if I nailed the throttle in 2nd gear. That is one thing I dont want. I dont mind lighting the tires up but I dont just want to sit there smoking the tires like im in a burn out contest.

 

Just putting this out there, but a longer stroke engine wears faster. The longer the stroke, the faster the piston goes down the cylinder. The longer the stroke, the more stress there is on the rings, piston and rods.

As mentioned earlier about rod angle, when you have a long stroke engine with a relatively short deck height, the connecting rod can get an extreme angle on it right around when the crank pin is at a 90* angle in relation to the cylinder. This angle is literally trying to push the piston sideways into the bore, greatly increasing wear.

The biggest I would personally go is a 383. If you want any more then that, you should probably think about stepping up to a physically larger engine.

 

Oh I know and I understand that, the rod ratio is 1.512:1 and 1.5:1 is the highest rod angle I have seen one site about strokers is the highest a manufactuer would go with. But besides that though I have yet to see a complete block kit in a 383 CI displacement. I would have emailed P.A.W. if they could take their 420W kit and provide me with a 383 stroker kit with the machined block. That was mostly the reason I picked out the 420W kit was cause it came with the block all ready machined and ready to go just have to assemble it.

I know I already have a 351W but its a late 70`s block and I prefer not to use this block.

After looking into it I could still have 480 ft lbs of trq and 350 hp with a 383. So yes after looking into it I would prefer a 383 stroker, especially after finding this out but I need the block and would prefer to get it already to go like the 420 kit. I figured up the price above and I would be paying more than what I would just going with the 420.



~Update~

Jegs has some ford racing 392 stroker engines, just some issues it comes complete ready to run and the camshaft is a performance camshaft not ment for 2.50 rear axle ratio, the oil pan is a double sump where stock is a front sump, then the intake is a single plane which just wouldnt go with a street build. Its amazing that more places dont do like PAW or that PAW doesnt offer stroker block kits other than in the 420W. It is starting to become apparent that I should just focus on a oem stock rebuild.