Engine Stalling on Cold Morning-need help
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Tuned
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 489
Likes: 4
Engine Stalling on Cold Morning-need help
Fellas,
I need some input on this one. Ok, I have noticed that my truck is running a little rougher than usual when the engine is cold. The main thing that its doing that really has my attention is this. When the engine is cold and you pull out on the road and try to come up to speed it stalls out for a few seconds. It acts like its not getting any fuel. (It reminds me of when I open the throttle on my 4 wheeler and it can't put out any power, the carburetor usually just has some trash in it) Again, this is right after you start the engine on a cold day (30 deg) and let it run for about a min and pull out on the rd and ease into the throttle. Once the truck warms up a little it goes on to normal operation and everything goes back to normal.
Also, 2 other things I've noticed.
1) it is taking longer to start. This morning I went to crank it and it took about 5-7 seconds for the truck to fire up (45 degs this morning-not that cold). This may be battery issue, i will have them tested soon.
2) Lately i've noticed that when I turn the key on before starting the engine I don't hear anything (sometimes not all the time). Typically I hear some humming/ticking noise when turning the key on. I know the noise is coming from the vacume pump and maybe the fuel pump or injectors. What all devices should you hear when turning the key on??
This seems like a fuel related issue to me. I do a lot of travel and buy my fuel from multiple places, and run standyne fuel treatment in about every tank so i've crossed out bad fuel. What are the signs of injector problems? I do use rotella 15w40 conventional oil, i've heard of some folks changing to synthetic because of "injector stiction". Or maybe its something going on with my fuel pump. Whats the signs of a fuel pump malfunctioning? Its like the truck is not getting the necessary fuel on start up...
Any input and help trouble shooting this would be extremely helpful. Thanks guys, I've learned a ton on these forums and really appreciate the help.
F250, 6.0, 2005, 120k,
I need some input on this one. Ok, I have noticed that my truck is running a little rougher than usual when the engine is cold. The main thing that its doing that really has my attention is this. When the engine is cold and you pull out on the road and try to come up to speed it stalls out for a few seconds. It acts like its not getting any fuel. (It reminds me of when I open the throttle on my 4 wheeler and it can't put out any power, the carburetor usually just has some trash in it) Again, this is right after you start the engine on a cold day (30 deg) and let it run for about a min and pull out on the rd and ease into the throttle. Once the truck warms up a little it goes on to normal operation and everything goes back to normal.
Also, 2 other things I've noticed.
1) it is taking longer to start. This morning I went to crank it and it took about 5-7 seconds for the truck to fire up (45 degs this morning-not that cold). This may be battery issue, i will have them tested soon.
2) Lately i've noticed that when I turn the key on before starting the engine I don't hear anything (sometimes not all the time). Typically I hear some humming/ticking noise when turning the key on. I know the noise is coming from the vacume pump and maybe the fuel pump or injectors. What all devices should you hear when turning the key on??
This seems like a fuel related issue to me. I do a lot of travel and buy my fuel from multiple places, and run standyne fuel treatment in about every tank so i've crossed out bad fuel. What are the signs of injector problems? I do use rotella 15w40 conventional oil, i've heard of some folks changing to synthetic because of "injector stiction". Or maybe its something going on with my fuel pump. Whats the signs of a fuel pump malfunctioning? Its like the truck is not getting the necessary fuel on start up...
Any input and help trouble shooting this would be extremely helpful. Thanks guys, I've learned a ton on these forums and really appreciate the help.
F250, 6.0, 2005, 120k,
Postmaster
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,956
Likes: 6
From: Abilene, Texas
Posible injector sticking or ficm going bad. You should get your batteries checked very soon. If you do have a week battery it could fry the ficm. If you do replace the batteries remember to always replace both at the same time. Do you have any way o pulling codes. That would go a long way in diag. Try switching to syntheic 5w40 it seems to help alot with cold starts. Getting the latest flash will help too.
Thread Starter
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Tuned
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 489
Likes: 4
Well I just had my batteries checked and they are both bad. I will replace them this week, hopefully that helps solve the problem. What is a "re-flash". No, i don't have any way of checking codes. But i am about to invest into an SCT tuner, which I think can do that. What does it mean for the inectors to stick? Thanks fellas
Post Fiend
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,127
Likes: 6
1. Read up on getting good batteries.
Motorcraft batteries have excellent reputation.
My personal pref is go get 750cca vs. 850 for longer life.
2. Flash is the update to software that runs your vehicle. Must be done at dealer for $100 or so.
3. Codes.. borrow a code reader from Autozone etc. for now.
Better than nothing.
Also let you clear the code and see if it reappears.
I use a $50 code reader for now.
4. Injectors sticking... that is someone else question to answer.
Motorcraft batteries have excellent reputation.
My personal pref is go get 750cca vs. 850 for longer life.
2. Flash is the update to software that runs your vehicle. Must be done at dealer for $100 or so.
3. Codes.. borrow a code reader from Autozone etc. for now.
Better than nothing.
Also let you clear the code and see if it reappears.
I use a $50 code reader for now.
4. Injectors sticking... that is someone else question to answer.
Postmaster
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,956
Likes: 6
From: Abilene, Texas
Search the forum for "sticktion". There are lots of post about it. Basicly there is a small spool valve that moves up and down realy fast that is what makes the injector "fire". It's opperated by high pressure oil. When oil is cold it don't flow too well witch is why we suggest going to a 5w40. It will be lighter when cold. Sludge starts to build up causing the spool valve to oil latch and dosent opperate right till the oil warms up. I will post a link to a tread by bismic that explanes this better than I can. Yes the sct will read codes. I would sugest looking into auto enginuity though if you plane to keel the truck. It will do a much better job at getting the info you need. Also read in the tech folder on how to test your ficm. With bad batteries you could have ficm problems now.
Postmaster
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,956
Likes: 6
From: Abilene, Texas
Here is the post taking strait from bismic (mark)
*
*
FYI -
Typically when one injector fails, we find that the engine is hard to start and is low on power. If two injectors fail starting will be very hard or the engine will not start at all. If you do manage to start the engine, it will be very low on power.*
You also need to use synthetic oil (5W40), change the oil often, and get the latest flash -
The main reason why the 6.0 is so picky about oil is because it is totally reliant on two electromagnets to shuttle the spool and control the oil to the injectors. The 7.3`s use a electromagnet also but a spring to return the poppet to the closed position. Obviously the spring will work much better to "cut" through the thick oil and close the oil flow.
Not only will running oil with too thick of a viscosity cause rough starts. But this also will interrupt the shuttle action of the spool causing injection timing to be retarded causing poor performance and decreased mileage until the oil is up to full operating temperature.
There is a small spool valve in the top of the injector that controls the flow of high oil pressure fed to the intensifier piston in the fuel injector. That spool valve only moves .017", back and forth, on and off every time the injector fires.*
Many factors play in to how well that valve works such as, oil temp, oil quality, normal wear, ambient temp, and many others. As this valve ages it polishes itself inside the bore of the spool valve and as the spool valve slams back and forth it can set up the condition like a suction cup, hanging the valve to one side or the other.*
This uncommanded uncontrollable condition is called stiction (or oil latching). Mostly its a rough run cold condition but in severe cases it can be a no start or pretty harsh misfire condition. Oil that stays inside the valve on a hot engine shutdown and is allowed to cool slowly in the injector can aggravate the condition on restart, so the newest reflash uses inductive heat after shutdown to keep the oil warm, keep its viscosity low, and maximize the oil flowability to purge the oil from them. It has worked fantastic. It is an excellent preventative measure.
Typically when one injector fails, we find that the engine is hard to start and is low on power. If two injectors fail starting will be very hard or the engine will not start at all. If you do manage to start the engine, it will be very low on power.*
You also need to use synthetic oil (5W40), change the oil often, and get the latest flash -
The main reason why the 6.0 is so picky about oil is because it is totally reliant on two electromagnets to shuttle the spool and control the oil to the injectors. The 7.3`s use a electromagnet also but a spring to return the poppet to the closed position. Obviously the spring will work much better to "cut" through the thick oil and close the oil flow.
Not only will running oil with too thick of a viscosity cause rough starts. But this also will interrupt the shuttle action of the spool causing injection timing to be retarded causing poor performance and decreased mileage until the oil is up to full operating temperature.
There is a small spool valve in the top of the injector that controls the flow of high oil pressure fed to the intensifier piston in the fuel injector. That spool valve only moves .017", back and forth, on and off every time the injector fires.*
Many factors play in to how well that valve works such as, oil temp, oil quality, normal wear, ambient temp, and many others. As this valve ages it polishes itself inside the bore of the spool valve and as the spool valve slams back and forth it can set up the condition like a suction cup, hanging the valve to one side or the other.*
This uncommanded uncontrollable condition is called stiction (or oil latching). Mostly its a rough run cold condition but in severe cases it can be a no start or pretty harsh misfire condition. Oil that stays inside the valve on a hot engine shutdown and is allowed to cool slowly in the injector can aggravate the condition on restart, so the newest reflash uses inductive heat after shutdown to keep the oil warm, keep its viscosity low, and maximize the oil flowability to purge the oil from them. It has worked fantastic. It is an excellent preventative measure.
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Senior User
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
From: Millbrook, AL
Mine did the same thing one morning, got to wiggling on stuff under the hood while ideling and when I wiggled the ICP sensor harness the idle would flux up and down violently. Took a jewelers screwdriver and put just a tiny bit of dielectric grease on each contact in the harness and haven't had the same problem since. Maybe worth a try...
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Thread Starter
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Tuned
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 489
Likes: 4
Fellas,
Heres my conclusion so far about my rough start:
I just changed over to Rotella synthetic 5w-40 (previously rotella 15-40 dino). This made a HUGE DIFFERENCE. First I changed the batteries and the rough start still continued, couldn't tell that the new batteries made much of a difference. So my next approach was to change to 5w-40 synthetic (heard a lot of good things about 5w-40 syn on the forum). The new oil seems to have fixed it. I am very surprised how much this helped. I am completely sold on this oil! I started my truck this morning (temps have been around 28 degs, water puddles been iced over for about 3 days now) and truck sounded fine, no clatter or missing like before. I think the injectors were "sticking" like you guys mentioned. Makes sense to me since the new thinner synthetic oil cured the problem. However, when I get a few extra bucks I might have the truck "reflashed" as well.
Another question,
Is the "reflash" necessary for a truck that is not having any problems? Is this a good idea to do anyway as a preventitive measure?
Thanks again appreciate the help
Heres my conclusion so far about my rough start:
I just changed over to Rotella synthetic 5w-40 (previously rotella 15-40 dino). This made a HUGE DIFFERENCE. First I changed the batteries and the rough start still continued, couldn't tell that the new batteries made much of a difference. So my next approach was to change to 5w-40 synthetic (heard a lot of good things about 5w-40 syn on the forum). The new oil seems to have fixed it. I am very surprised how much this helped. I am completely sold on this oil! I started my truck this morning (temps have been around 28 degs, water puddles been iced over for about 3 days now) and truck sounded fine, no clatter or missing like before. I think the injectors were "sticking" like you guys mentioned. Makes sense to me since the new thinner synthetic oil cured the problem. However, when I get a few extra bucks I might have the truck "reflashed" as well.
Another question,
Is the "reflash" necessary for a truck that is not having any problems? Is this a good idea to do anyway as a preventitive measure?
Thanks again appreciate the help
Post Fiend
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,127
Likes: 6
Nope. My truck ran with the factory 2005 flash since it was new, only reflashed Oct 30... and I missed the latest flash by 3 weeks.
Also missed the FICM killer flash!
Glad it all worked out for you....
Now... keep your batteries charged and in good shape.. that makes a huge difference.
Senior User
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
From: Millbrook, AL
My truck recently started missing again. Hasn't stalled again, just missing on the first few revolutions of the engine on cold starts. It got pretty pronouned since the beginning of the "real cold" weather. But was missing even on 50 degree mornings w/o being plugged up. Took it to the dealer, they still have it, but I called them they said so far they've found 4 bad injectors. Truck ran fine just after startup, glad I'm still under emissions warranty.
Senior User
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
From: Millbrook, AL
If all they find is bad injectors, I shouldn't have to pay anything. Injectors are covered under the emissions warranty which has no deductible. If they repalace anything that isn't covered by that umbrella, then I'll have to pay the 100. Which I also had a concern about a droning turbo, which according to the TSB takes a support braket to fix. That won't be covered by emissions I don't think. But 100 bucks isn't bad for a shop bill that is at least gonna be $1200-$1500.
Senior User
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
From: Millbrook, AL
Well got my truck back after a week, little to complain about though, 4 new injectors and a rental truck to drive and I didn't pay a penny. Runs great now, I guess I didn't know just how bad it was running as this truck is still fairly new to me bought at 43k now has 47k. Also have got the newest flash. Hope my mileage doesn't go to crap like everyone elses seems to. Good job Gilmore ford in Prattville, al.
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