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6.4L Power Stroke Diesel Engine fitted to 2008 - 2010 F250, F350 and F450 pickup trucks and F350 + Cab Chassis

Questions on the DPF

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Old Aug 13, 2009 | 08:37 AM
  #16  
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I think that if there were other issues that caused the sooty pipes (not the DPF) and they are fixed then the pipes would eventually clean up.

But..the life of the DPF may be reduced because it will get full sooner?

How long can a DPF last in real world conditions? I don't think we know that true answer yet.
 
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Old Aug 13, 2009 | 03:26 PM
  #17  
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It's freaky how the timing is on these threads. As I was driving today I went through the normal regen cycles, display message "cleaning exhaust filter" as always.

Immediately after I got through ATL I stopped for fuel and while it was in high idle at the pump the display said "drive to clean exhaust filter".

In two years and 97,800 miles I have never seen this message. I know it is part of the system but I just never got into a situation where the PCM demanded that strategy. Makes me wonder if my DPF is beginning to show signs of being near the end of it's duty cycle?

This is what I mean by this system. You just never know what it's going to do, and when.
 
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Old Aug 13, 2009 | 08:29 PM
  #18  
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The mandatory drive to clean message can happen to anyone. I have had it happen once as well, I think it was somewhere around 10K on the motor. So not sure about that. You may have just picked up some bad fuel at the bottom of the tank maybe?
 
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Old Aug 13, 2009 | 09:15 PM
  #19  
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I don't know about the fuel. It's a fairly new Exxon and I had to wait for 3 SD's to fill up before I could get to the pump. I'll drain the water separator in the morning to be sure and get a good look at it.

I do feel better knowing that you had the message too at such a low mileage. I just don't want the thing to limp on me when I am 600 miles from home or on the way to a job.
 
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Old Aug 13, 2009 | 09:15 PM
  #20  
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I don't know about the fuel. It's a fairly new Exxon and I had to wait for 3 SD's to fill up before I could get to the pump. I'll drain the water separator in the morning to be sure and get a good look at it.

I do feel better knowing that you had the message too at such a low mileage. I just don't want the thing to limp on me when I am 600 miles from home or on the way to a job.
 
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Old Aug 24, 2009 | 04:35 PM
  #21  
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i have sooty pipes too!! and when you hammer on it you can see a trail of light black smoke behind you.. all though it does clear up for a bit after you have had the cleaning exhaust filter do its coarse. the truck is going in later in the week should i ask them too check out TSB 09-10-2 to see why i have sooty pipes?? what do you guys think?

thanks
Koboss
 
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Old Aug 25, 2009 | 08:25 AM
  #22  
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Any chance of posting that TSB for us? I had a DPF replaced once already and just 6k later the pipes are black again. Its not as bad as the first one but I clean them out really good when I wash it and sure enough they keep turning black. I have complained to the dealer about extremely poor mileage (worse than average, even for these trucks) which could also be a result of over fueling so I would love to have something for them to investigate when I take it in.
 
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Old Aug 29, 2009 | 10:33 AM
  #23  
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I have trouble understanding why this is hard to get--

The dpf is a ceramic wall flow filter. It filters soot. It filters soot below a micron (or size) level that is visible to the human eye.

There is no "bypass" built into the filter. If you are seeing soot in your tailpipe, the dpf is cracked. If something is occurring in front of the dpf to clog it, it will just regen more often, or throw a code if it can't.

Soot in exhaust=cracked dpf

If you see black liquid in your tailpipe, then something else is going on, but the dpf micron size never changes. The only thing that can get through it has to be smaller than the filter will allow. Unless it is cracked or somehow broken.
 
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Old Aug 29, 2009 | 11:29 AM
  #24  
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Guesswork

Originally Posted by vloney
If a DPF is cracked sufficiently to have sooty pipes, the "hole" will be significant.
That is itself is conjecture. Unless someone knows the programming logic and set points to the regeneration program anything we say is guesswork. If a tiny crack in the DPF lets thru 1% of the exhaust flow along with 1% of the soot, eventually you will get sooty pipes (it might take 100 minutes of driving rather than 1 minute) , and the pressure differential might still be with the min/max of the program.

There are also several types of filters - an absolute that filters all (or 99.9%) particles greater than a certain size, and a nominal filter that filters a percentage of various sized (90% of 2 micron, 85% of 1 micron, 75% of 2 microns) - the DPF seems to be an absolute filter - but I haven't seen what the cutoff particle size is.

It seems to be to Ford's benefit to keep us in the dark as possible, since they don't want to replace DPFs unless forced to. If they admitted that any soot = a cracked DPF, then their dealers would be submitting a lot more warranty work. It will be interesting to see what happens when our trucks go off warranty - I think they will be a lot more willing to replace the DPF if we are paying for it.
 
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Old Aug 29, 2009 | 12:15 PM
  #25  
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I apologize in advance for being perhaps a bit off thread. My pipes got black and after waering the Ford computer for 3 weeks and in the shop for 10 days thereafter it was determined that I had a bad high pressure fuel pump. 4 extra quarts of oil mandated an oil change. For 27k miles, I have always grown oil at or slightly above Ford's ok levels so change evey 4-5k mile. The above was excessive. DPF was not replaced. Everything factory stock. I did not wash/clean exhaust pipes. After 2k miles of highway heavy (5th wheel w 25k combined weight on a 450 w/4.3 gears), with regen every 80-100 miles like clockwork, my exhaust pipes are clean again. Sure glad they fixed the source of the black.

The thing is, I still get black specks on the passenger (exhaust) side of my camper that have never appeared on the left side. This happens rain or shine and if I don't wash camper it gets pretty ugly over time. Until the blackpipe I never thought twice about it; just assument it was normal. I never see black smoke coming out of the exhaust. Admitedly I have heavily tinted windows all around, but I have rolled down windows under heavy acceleration on many occasion and haven't seen smoke. With regens so frequent it is impossible to tell if the specs come out during normal ops or during regen. This occurred before and after the fuel pump replacement. Truck runs as if everything is just fine; frankly other than occasional power loss it did so before the fuel pump replacement.

Question to those that know, Are these specs normal ad regardless, what in the normal ops or regen process could be creating specs in lieu of smoke that folks without white 5ers just won't see. The front wall of the 5th wheel is less than 4 feet behind the bumper, and as many know some older diesels tended to blacken this area a bit.

PS, even with new HP fuel pump I still grow oil at same Ford "ok" rate. Yes I have the Late 2008/January 2009 flash update.

Thanks is advance.

I have 27k miles.
 
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Old Aug 29, 2009 | 02:22 PM
  #26  
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If I were you and you have a good couple of diesel mechanics at your dealership, I would drive my 5er to the dealership and show it to them.

If I were your dealer, I would be on the phone to any and all resources to diagnose your problem.

I tow white trailers constantly, 1970 miles in the last 6 days, none of them have ANY evidence of diesel soot of any type over the last 2 years. I used to get really cranky with the duramax I had 'cause I had to constantly wash the trailers for all the black soot all over them. So, believe me, I know exactly what you are talking about.
 
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Old Aug 29, 2009 | 06:34 PM
  #27  
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I too have a white TT and never any soot on the trailer. I have also driven my truck cross country and never anything on any of the stuff
 
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Old Aug 29, 2009 | 06:42 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by SpartanDieselTech
There are only 2 things that ultimately contribute to fueling- injection pressure and injection pulsewidth (added up over the multiple injection shots). The diagnostics that control the pump are pretty *tight*, ie it doesn't take significant error to throw codes. Any difference enough to add up to an overfueling condition from either the pressure or volume control valve will throw the truck into limp and DTC's long before any DPF damage comes about.

It only takes a small crack in the DPF to allow soot by; even a very tiny amount will build up soot in the pipes and not much more to see visible smoke. These engines run low injection timing (and correspondingly more particulates) in order to keep NOX emissions down; the exhaust in the downpipe contains a visible amount of soot the majority of the time under load.

The calibrated error thresholds for the DPF pressure sensor to detect an actual leak aren't as stringent as one might think, simply because there are fluctuations in average pressure over the lifepsan of the DPF and simply in the allowed tolerances as the DPF's are manufactured. The tolerances allowed would not detect the small leaks that are necessary to build up soot or visible smoke.

If it gets bad enough, obviously, codes will be thrown and limp mode will likely ensue, but not all the time. Most DPF cracks happen diagonally across the substrate filter media between the "squares" inside or down the length of the ceramic mesh that binds the substrate squares together. Given the average volume of exhaust passing through the DPF at any given point in time, it takes a pretty hefty leak to cause a detectable amount of pressure drop- let alone one large enough to exceed the calibrated thresholds. The tolerances are more than enough to allow soot buildup and smoking if the DPF contains small cracks.

I can also definitively tell you from looking at the calibration that fueling is in no way directly controlled by the DPF pressure sensor; even for the POST2 "regen" injection. The pressure sensor can request small percentage changes in fueling based on large differentials but normal fueling functions are controlled simply by mass fueling tables.

As for the EGRTB sensor, it being out of calibration could allow the EGR valve to open farther and for longer than needed, decreasing oxygen to the cylinders and increasing particulate production- this would increase overall catalyst and DPF temperatures on average and affect lifespan over time, but once again there are error thresholds for how much duty cycle change is allowed based on EGR inlet/exit temperature differentials. As for coolant quality- anything that affects the function of the EGR coolers- be it air bubbles from low coolant level or whatever else will affect the efficiency of the coolers and provide less temperature drop in the incoming exhaust to the intake manifold. This could also affect soot production as high EGR temperatures require more EGR flow in order to do the same job (and the calibration is aware of this). However, just like the last scenario, there are numerous plausibility diagnostics in place to ensure that these tolerances don't pile up on each other to create a condition that shortens the lifespan of any of the components or cause a drivability concern.

No DPF can allow soot to leak by because it is "overwhelmed" or the presence to too much soot. It can only leak by physical failure; ie cracking; which can be accelerated by too much soot or regens that are too hot or too long due to a malfunction. I see this myth float around the forums a lot.

To answer vloney's question directly, yes, there are situations with hardware control such as the pump valves that can accelerate failure of the DPF under the right conditions. However, I firmly believe none of the conditions could occur in a situation without tripping the diagnostics and correspondingly causing the truck to run like absolute ***. DPF's that so happen to fail and leak soot without diagnostic warning or indications were, IMO, simply faulty components to start with. They are prone to failure inherently by current design.
Awesome info and your use of semicolons and overall punctuation is exceptional, especially for an Internet forum! Keep up the good stuff. I for sure will be looking at your company for products when my warranty is up (65K miles to go).
D.
 
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Old Aug 31, 2009 | 08:06 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by JohnD333
DPF was not replaced. Everything factory stock. I did not wash/clean exhaust pipes. After 2k miles of highway heavy (5th wheel w 25k combined weight on a 450 w/4.3 gears), with regen every 80-100 miles like clockwork, my exhaust pipes are clean again. Sure glad they fixed the source of the black.
HMMMM... your pipes are clean again and the dpf was not replaced.................
 
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