WARNING Overzealous Oil Changes, potential harm
Senior User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 286
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From: USA
WARNING Overzealous Oil Changes, potential harm
I never thought of pulling the spark and turning the engine over but seems like a good idea for those that are worried about running without oil. I personally will watch the oil pressure indicator and if it hasn't come on within 5-10 seconds will shut down and resort to priming the pump and then doing what you suggest.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,860
Likes: 4
From: Metro Detroit (Redford)
WARNING Overzealous Oil Changes, potential harm
Only problem with pulling the spark plugs and turning the engine is aren't you pumping raw fuel into the cylinders that will wash down the cylinder walls and contaminate your new oil? Also too much work when prefilling the filter and possibly the oil pump discharge hole should do it. After all, this problem has only happened to me once in 25 years.
As for the horizontal filter mount. I think if you pour some oil in the filter and then hold it on an angle and rotate it, the oil will soak through to the outer part of the canister and then not drip back so easily. If it drips, just catch it in the drain pan. Of course, this won't work on an Aerostar as the drips go into the starter (3.0L version).
For the record, PM got the tip from Atlas Supply Co., not Allied Signal (well I had the first letters right anyway
).
As for the horizontal filter mount. I think if you pour some oil in the filter and then hold it on an angle and rotate it, the oil will soak through to the outer part of the canister and then not drip back so easily. If it drips, just catch it in the drain pan. Of course, this won't work on an Aerostar as the drips go into the starter (3.0L version).
For the record, PM got the tip from Atlas Supply Co., not Allied Signal (well I had the first letters right anyway
).
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,713
Likes: 2
From: In my House
WARNING Overzealous Oil Changes, potential harm
I do it all the time, Just jump the Solenoid wire under the hood. Without the ignition being in the "on" position, you get no spark which also means without the ign. on, your ELectric fuel pumps won't pump either. Just did it last week when I did my compression check.
Rich
Rich
Posting Guru
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,017
Likes: 2
From: Southeast FLA
WARNING Overzealous Oil Changes, potential harm
96f150, that sounds like a great idea. Could ya help me out with it? Do you jump the wires directly from the battery, or do you just touch the positive to negative (at the solenoid) with a wire?
TallPaul, I'm not going to deny that fuel goes into each cylinder to some extent, but I was always thinking that the amount of fuel at idel could not be much, that the extra fuel in the cylinder would burn off, and that any that got past the rings would burn off once the engine is heated up.
But then your point is a good one - is it counterproductive by 'washing' the cylinder walls clean with gasoline? I don't know. I don't even know if it gets that far, or if unburned gasoline still has lubricative properties.
Best,
TallPaul, I'm not going to deny that fuel goes into each cylinder to some extent, but I was always thinking that the amount of fuel at idel could not be much, that the extra fuel in the cylinder would burn off, and that any that got past the rings would burn off once the engine is heated up.
But then your point is a good one - is it counterproductive by 'washing' the cylinder walls clean with gasoline? I don't know. I don't even know if it gets that far, or if unburned gasoline still has lubricative properties.
Best,
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,860
Likes: 4
From: Metro Detroit (Redford)
WARNING Overzealous Oil Changes, potential harm
>For the record, PM got the tip from Atlas Supply Co., not
>Allied Signal (well I had the first letters right
>anyway ).
Wow. This is weird. I mistakenly said Allied Signal (who make Fram) and today I searched Google for "loss of prime in oil pump" and guess what? Allied Signal has an article on it. Check it out: http://cpgparts.alliedsignal.com/cpg/catalog/fram/legal/LossofPrime.pdf
>Allied Signal (well I had the first letters right
>anyway
). Wow. This is weird. I mistakenly said Allied Signal (who make Fram) and today I searched Google for "loss of prime in oil pump" and guess what? Allied Signal has an article on it. Check it out: http://cpgparts.alliedsignal.com/cpg/catalog/fram/legal/LossofPrime.pdf
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,860
Likes: 4
From: Metro Detroit (Redford)
WARNING Overzealous Oil Changes, potential harm
>TallPaul, I'm not going to deny that fuel goes into each
>cylinder to some extent, but I was always thinking that the
>amount of fuel at idel could not be much, that the extra
>fuel in the cylinder would burn off, and that any that got
>past the rings would burn off once the engine is heated up.
Hopefully it would burn off.
>But then your point is a good one - is it counterproductive
>by 'washing' the cylinder walls clean with gasoline? I
>don't know. I don't even know if it gets that far, or if
>unburned gasoline still has lubricative properties.
I don't think the gasoline would have much lubricative property and after washing the oil off the cylinder walls you could get increased wear.
I'm just talking based on things I have heard and read mixed with what happend to those things in my head over the years. So I could be all wrong, but it is a good question and hopefully someone will shed more light. I just started a new thread to get some input on this it is in this forum and is titled, "Can cranking a non-starting engine put fuel into the oil." Let's see what the FTE experts say.
>cylinder to some extent, but I was always thinking that the
>amount of fuel at idel could not be much, that the extra
>fuel in the cylinder would burn off, and that any that got
>past the rings would burn off once the engine is heated up.
Hopefully it would burn off.
>But then your point is a good one - is it counterproductive
>by 'washing' the cylinder walls clean with gasoline? I
>don't know. I don't even know if it gets that far, or if
>unburned gasoline still has lubricative properties.
I don't think the gasoline would have much lubricative property and after washing the oil off the cylinder walls you could get increased wear.
I'm just talking based on things I have heard and read mixed with what happend to those things in my head over the years. So I could be all wrong, but it is a good question and hopefully someone will shed more light. I just started a new thread to get some input on this it is in this forum and is titled, "Can cranking a non-starting engine put fuel into the oil." Let's see what the FTE experts say.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,860
Likes: 4
From: Metro Detroit (Redford)
WARNING Overzealous Oil Changes, potential harm
Here is the menu that the loss of prime article from Fram is located in. There are some other interesting articles. But perhaps the most intersting thing is the Autolite connection. Check it out.
http://cpgparts.alliedsignal.com/cpg/catalog/fram/menu.html
http://cpgparts.alliedsignal.com/cpg/catalog/fram/menu.html
Posting Guru
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,070
Likes: 2
From: Boise, Idaho
WARNING Overzealous Oil Changes, potential harm
Regarding the long wait before the oil pressure light comes on. I can see a situation where the oil pump has difficulity priming itself after an oil change.
If you pre-fill your filter, install it, then fill the crankcase, you trap air in the oil pump pickup tube from top to bottom because the oil in the oil filter acts as an air lock to prevent the air from escaping through it.
If you fill the crankcase before installing the oil filter, oil can rise into the oil pump pickup tube because the air can escape out the oil filter mounting hole.
I hope that I remember to use this sequence next time I change oil.
If you pre-fill your filter, install it, then fill the crankcase, you trap air in the oil pump pickup tube from top to bottom because the oil in the oil filter acts as an air lock to prevent the air from escaping through it.
If you fill the crankcase before installing the oil filter, oil can rise into the oil pump pickup tube because the air can escape out the oil filter mounting hole.
I hope that I remember to use this sequence next time I change oil.
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Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,860
Likes: 4
From: Metro Detroit (Redford)
WARNING Overzealous Oil Changes, potential harm
>If you pre-fill your filter, install it, then fill the
>crankcase, you trap air in the oil pump pickup tube from top
>to bottom because the oil in the oil filter acts as an air
>lock to prevent the air from escaping through it.
>
>If you fill the crankcase before installing the oil filter,
>oil can rise into the oil pump pickup tube because the air
>can escape out the oil filter mounting hole.
Good point Paul. I may try that too, but the danger is you may forget to put the filter on at all . Guess you could set it up on the air cleaner housing as a reminder. Anyway I got an old-fashioned oil squirter (with the trigger and long skinny spout) at the hardware. When I told the guy what I wanted he said, "like your grandfather used to use?" Then he said he sells about one a year. Next oil change I will squirt full the pump outlet hole with 5w30 and put a filled oil filter on.
>crankcase, you trap air in the oil pump pickup tube from top
>to bottom because the oil in the oil filter acts as an air
>lock to prevent the air from escaping through it.
>
>If you fill the crankcase before installing the oil filter,
>oil can rise into the oil pump pickup tube because the air
>can escape out the oil filter mounting hole.
Good point Paul. I may try that too, but the danger is you may forget to put the filter on at all
. Guess you could set it up on the air cleaner housing as a reminder. Anyway I got an old-fashioned oil squirter (with the trigger and long skinny spout) at the hardware. When I told the guy what I wanted he said, "like your grandfather used to use?" Then he said he sells about one a year. Next oil change I will squirt full the pump outlet hole with 5w30 and put a filled oil filter on.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,228
Likes: 5
From: Running Springs CA
WARNING Overzealous Oil Changes, potential harm
>perhaps the most intersting thing is the Autolite
>connection.
>
Yup. My bad experience with Autolite spark plugs does not surprise me, since it is the same company as Fram. Many people think Autolite is interchangeable with Motorcraft, NOT! Bendix brakes are also from AlliedSignal. I dont want to risk my life with brakes from them.
Jim
Elder User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 773
Likes: 0
From: VA/USA
WARNING Overzealous Oil Changes, potential harm
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 18-Nov-02 AT 06:47 PM (EST)]>Regarding the long wait before the oil pressure light comes
>on. I can see a situation where the oil pump has difficulity
>priming itself after an oil change.
>
>If you pre-fill your filter, install it, then fill the
>crankcase, you trap air in the oil pump pickup tube from top
>to bottom because the oil in the oil filter acts as an air
>lock to prevent the air from escaping through it.
>
>If you fill the crankcase before installing the oil filter,
>oil can rise into the oil pump pickup tube because the air
>can escape out the oil filter mounting hole.
>
>I hope that I remember to use this sequence next time I
>change oil.
Very interesting - never occurred to me (and I'm still trying to fully grasp it) but it sounds like a "hot-lick" to me !
I'm going to take it under serious advisement!
Thanks pcmenten! 
>on. I can see a situation where the oil pump has difficulity
>priming itself after an oil change.
>
>If you pre-fill your filter, install it, then fill the
>crankcase, you trap air in the oil pump pickup tube from top
>to bottom because the oil in the oil filter acts as an air
>lock to prevent the air from escaping through it.
>
>If you fill the crankcase before installing the oil filter,
>oil can rise into the oil pump pickup tube because the air
>can escape out the oil filter mounting hole.
>
>I hope that I remember to use this sequence next time I
>change oil.
Very interesting - never occurred to me (and I'm still trying to fully grasp it) but it sounds like a "hot-lick" to me !
I'm going to take it under serious advisement!
Thanks pcmenten!
Laughing Gas
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 13
From: Kincardine, ON
WARNING Overzealous Oil Changes, potential harm
I also subscribe to the "can't change it enough" theory of oil changing. The oil filter fill and avoiding trapping air with crankcase filling first are great but I still feel you can't beat a pre-luber. Either a kit from the various suppliers or home built (I spent about $200.00Cdn. total on my homemade)and you'll never look back. I like the feeling of seeing good oil pressure on my gauge before turning the key.
John.
John.
Posting Guru
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,070
Likes: 2
From: Boise, Idaho
WARNING Overzealous Oil Changes, potential harm
I like the concept of a pre-luber but I'm a little worried that it might cause more problems than it fixes. If you're talking about an external pump that pumps up oil pressure prior to starting the engine, I forsee some potential issues.
The pre-luber would have to have a check valve and if that valve ever stuck open it would screw everything up. And the plumbing for a pre-luber would be outside the block where it is exposed to potential damage and more opportunity for loss of oil pressure.
I would do this for an expensive, close clearance engine but not for a daily driver.
The pre-luber would have to have a check valve and if that valve ever stuck open it would screw everything up. And the plumbing for a pre-luber would be outside the block where it is exposed to potential damage and more opportunity for loss of oil pressure.
I would do this for an expensive, close clearance engine but not for a daily driver.
Posting Guru
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,673
Likes: 0
From: Chicago Area
WARNING Overzealous Oil Changes, potential harm
An external pump IS problematic, but a pressurized external sump is quite reliable. It works like a well's pressure tank. Mine is by Accusump. Aeroquip hose plumbs into an existing plugged hole in the oil filter casting (mod V8). A solenoid valve opens when the ignition is turned on. A restricted input (but not output) allows the sump to refill slowly after the engine is running. The check valve in the oil filter prevents back flow (use a Motorcraft or other good quality filter with a silicon check valve).
BSS
BSS
Laughing Gas
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 13
From: Kincardine, ON
WARNING Overzealous Oil Changes, potential harm
The external sump is nice but I notice that if the truck sits for any length of time it takes quite a while to get good oil pressure built up. I prefer being able to hold the pump on until I see the pressure I'm happy with as opposed to the one shot. The cold weather isn't a help either, and that's with synthetic.
I've run my system for a couple years now trouble free. I don't see a need for a check valve though, the pump is a positive displacement gear type. When the pump is off it acts as a positive stop. The switch is a spring return to "off" and it's powered by a starter relay (spare parts are handy!) I used hydraulic hose and fittings. Not that expensive and if heavy equipment can rely on it with high hydraulic pressure then my 20psi won't hurt it. I more worry about those relying on little nylon tubing for pressure gauges then the hydraulic hose failing.
Personal choice will dictate what everyone is comfortable with though. Maybe its as much the peace of mind when I spool up the pre-luber, since I've seen my fair share of high mileage motors that just do regular oil changes and normal maintenance without any fancy add ons.
John
I've run my system for a couple years now trouble free. I don't see a need for a check valve though, the pump is a positive displacement gear type. When the pump is off it acts as a positive stop. The switch is a spring return to "off" and it's powered by a starter relay (spare parts are handy!) I used hydraulic hose and fittings. Not that expensive and if heavy equipment can rely on it with high hydraulic pressure then my 20psi won't hurt it. I more worry about those relying on little nylon tubing for pressure gauges then the hydraulic hose failing.
Personal choice will dictate what everyone is comfortable with though. Maybe its as much the peace of mind when I spool up the pre-luber, since I've seen my fair share of high mileage motors that just do regular oil changes and normal maintenance without any fancy add ons.
John