Regarding the dead link, type in the link by hand or just do a google search, it will open.

I can go back to muffler flow test that were done going back to 1953 by "Speed Donaldson", Don Prudome (1970's), up through the more recent including Broader Performance (an independant machine/transmission shop) that literally show the same results each time. Their test results are published on their web site:

broaderperformance.com

contact info is:

(978) 689-3545


Even on the most poor performing glasspack (louvered design versus perforation such as you use), if the muffler is installed backwards, the flow is increase almost 50% (depending on length) where the anti-reversion principle takes effect (such as with the 1st Cyclone anti-reversion headers used on Richard Petty's car in the 80's).

With regards to surface oxidation, take a look at any 10 year old + Borla XR1 muffler- they use aircraft grade stainless (not that common stainless isn't good- it is, and the oxidation is only on the surface and will not penetrate any farther such as you use),- the point being, I don't believe anyone can present a pic of a 10+ year old Borla XR1 that when exposed to environmental conditions (salt air, road salt, snow, etc) will have even a fraction of the surface rust yours shows.

Misleading/false statements for a vendor do not only do a dis-service to your potential sales but clearly leads to the need for 3rd party testing/certification made in the perfprmance parts industry to validate claims that are made.

These are not only my opinions based upon your statements but on a previous thread you made similar references and were blasted by others as well.

I hope the web site owner takes notice of this issue and resulves it.

 

Ok, you can claim what you like, but not Borla, nor anyone else, uses "aircraft grade stainless". What Borla uses is a high chromium T304 stainless. What we have used is a 409 stainless. I have not been misleading in this regard. Aircraft grade stainless is a military spec material not used in consumer products. Our stainless is the same type of stainless used by Magnaflow, Bosal, Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, etc. this material is used because it is highly corrosion resistant, but it does not hold a polished finish well, and readily discolors when heated over 400F. The "oxidation" you are seeing is not rust. If we wanted to sell a product that would have a mirror finish for the life of the muffler, we would have used T304. Borla's polished finish does not improve the quality of their product, but it does drive up the price, both in materials and the time to prepare the product. Borla's price is excessive as a result.

The reason we went with the 409 is because it is much tougher and less brittle than T304. T304 work-hardens and can crack near the high stress areas around the neck, resulting in failure due to metal fatigue in the work-hardened region. I can illustrate this with a video we put of our muffler versus Magnaflow. This test was performed by an independant muffler shop. We paid them for the Magnaflow muffler that was broken as a result of the test (we bought it from the shop that tested it). The 409 stainless we use is an industry standard and has been thoroughly tested. Before we ever started marketing this product here, we placed one of these mufflers is a salt water brine. Saltwater had no effect on the muffler, at least not at room temperature.

But 409 will turn colors when it gets hot. If you look at those pictures again, you will see there is no rust anywhere. The body of the muffler has some sand stuck on it, but no rust where you would expect to see any. The necks have turned a reddish brown color because they got hot enough to alter to color of the metal. Upon request, we can provide pictures of other objects made from 409 that have been heated up. No rust, but they can turn even a purple or blue color. The sequence of color change is yellow for mild heat, red, purple, then blue. Over time it turns brownish. Should it ever rust out (like thats ever going to happen), that is covered by our lifetime warranty.

One thing I will certainly note, is the customer who bought this and posted this listing was very pleased with his muffler. It is only one who has not tried the muffler, handled one, or looked at it closely, who immediately decides it is somehow an inferior product and proceeds to bash it. The overly opinionated approach used here is both destructive and counterproductive to progress in the real world, and does nothing but cloud the thinking of otherwise open minded, progressive individuals who might take ill-founded opinion as truth. Magnaflow was once the new kid on the block and had to complete with products such as Flowmaster and glasspacks. Imagine what their fate would have been if open-minded individuals had not recognized it on it's own merit at that time.

On your alleged findings, allow me to share these where all can see. According to Broaderperformance site you provided, a 2.25" straight pipe will flow 365 cfm. According to the same site, a 2.25" glasspack (no louvers) only flows 274 cfm. Thats a flow reduction of 25%. A glasspack with louvers drops that down to 133 cfm. Thats a flow reduction of a staggering 63% reduction in flow!!! This supports what I have been saying about glasspacks all along. In contrast, a straight through muffler with no wrinkle bends, such as the WickedFlow, flows at the same level as a straight pipe. Now pray tell, if a straight pipe performs better than a glasspack, and a straight through muffler with no restrictions also flows as well as a straight pipe, then it stands to reason that a straight through muffler will flow better than a glasspack.

The only case I can see where the glasspack would be better and when the anti-reversal effect comes into play, is when the whole exhaust system is so large that it becomes an issue. If the vehicle would do best with a 2.25" system and it has a 3" system, then a glasspack might work better on the 3" system than other larger mufflers. Thats because it probably equates closely to a 2.25" section in the system. But if the 2.25" system were tested on the same engine, the results would favor the unrestricted mufflers.

Have you paused long enough to wonder what values our product has to offer, that perhaps other products do not? The number one complaint I receive calls about is that "insert brand name" mufflers are too loud and my wife won't ride in the truck with me. The market niche I am focusing on is something with a quieter sound. Our 13" muffler still packs some punch as this fans video demonstrates, but it is much quieter than most others. Our larger mufflers are even quieter. I switched from a Flowmaster style muffler to one of our 18" Wickedflow mufflers for this very reason. And yes, I have used other straight through mufflers too. I know what my customers are talking about when they complain of the droning and resonance, because I've had that problem in the past too. I will admit, quieter mufflers are not for everyone. For those that want louder mufflers, you need not ask me, there are plenty of choices out there. For those who want a durable well built muffler, that is quieter and stays quiet, reward yourself for a good quality (and reasonably priced) muffler.

While I agree in principle with the lengthy rationale employed in this rebuttal, which seems to be based on passion rather than principle. Perhaps you would like to volunteer to test our product, since you want unbiased reviews. I would be more than happy to have our product dyno tested and flow-benched. I would dyno test my own vehicle, except that it is an AWD and that presents some problems. I do not have a 2WD vehicle to use for a test. If I were to use the manufacturers test results, the results could also be construed as biased.

It may be that the adage applies that "It's foolish to wrestle a pig in the mud. The pig actually enjoys it".

 

Let me clarify the "muddied issue".

1. In your original post you stated (and I'm paraphrasing) that glasspacks have louvers & they restrict flow.

1. Glasspacks are mfg with both louvers & perforations.
2. Thrush still mfg's glasspacks and they outflow many of the "performance mufflers"- documented by many orgs and even shown on TV's Hot Rod Magazine at UTI, where each student group evaluates the best exhaust components for their class projects (Typically, Hooker outflows 99% of the tested group each time- a product that was designed in the 1960's) .
3. Louvered glasspacks while true are not the best flowing units, when installed backwards, there is a dramitic increase in flow (as tested by Broader Performance)
4. As you are aware, there are 3 types (designs) of mufflers. Glasspacks are based upon sound absorbsion design- a perforated tube is a perforated tube no matter who is the mfg, the diameter of the holes may vary as well as the quantity & type of packing material, but it is based upon the same sound absorbsion and flow theory- yours, edelbrock, thrush, borla.

 

What I would really be curious to know, please if this info is out there send me a link to it, how much exhaust flow do I need?

Under stock rpm limited WOT that number is going to be different than say tuned rpm limited WOT. It is not like our engines are built to turn 10,000 rpm.

Having stock intake, modified intake, or forced induction will factor on how much exhaust flow we need.

Displacement of the engine makes a difference.

Type of exhaust manifold and diameter of the runners to the collectors diameter will be a pretty big factor.

Is the exhaust manifold tuned to help scavenge the exhaust gas so the engine is not having to "push" the gases as hard to get it out the tailpipe? BTW is that snake oil I am reading on some of the descriptions?

I have read over and over is that to much exhaust is worse than stock. Does my truck need 3.5" exhaust? No. Is the stock 2.5" restrictive in some ways...could be. Could I see more performance gains with changing it all out...most likely.

I am not an engineer or a mechanic. I just know I have an idea of what I want to do to my truck and not do to my truck. When I do find a product I like I am not shy about saying I like it. Same with products that aggravate me. Mentioned it multiple times now that I wanted something different. I knew nearly ANYTHING I got would perform better than the monster that was on the truck stock. What was so frustrating is trying to find a sound clip of this muffler before buying it. I wasn't even concerned that it flowed better or worse than X brand. I already knew I was moving forward performance wise. I wanted to have different sounding exhaust. I didn't want to spend couple hundred bucks on the muffler alone to do that either. I didn't want the dreaded drone already mentioned. I have tried to record what little of a drone I do hear and it might not even be correct to label it as drone in the first place. Is drone strictly noise or sympathetic vibration caused in the cab of the truck from the exhaust? Combination of the two maybe? Anyways I get more road noise, change rattling in my ash tray, keys jingling on the column, air noise from the A/C(I would have to do my sound recording at midnight to run without A/C for more than 5 minutes this time a year), and crap in my side pockets rattling. If I turn on the stereo to say 2-3 bars most of all that goes away but the A/C unless I hit a bump. There is the dynamat I am thinking about doing in my truck.

My ONLY investment in giving Bear River some lip service is I want them to be around in case my muffler does crap out on me. I saw a thread where Magnaflow was a bit of a PITA to get a replacement part. Unless I missed it I don't see any other mufflers guys hawking their products here either. Even for a guy hawking his stuff he is also not shy telling people not to buy it. So yeah call me biased but I think the mufflers they are offering have a place in the market. Are they for everyone...of course not. Just like I didn't want Cherry Bombs doesn't make them a crappy product, just not my choice. Plenty of guys out there have them, love them, and would quickly tell you how much you need them. If my sound clips get him one sale awesome. If he gets a thousand sales I want a cut or at least a muffler named after me.