When building a motor and I spec the 2.1" vs 2.2" journal, the fact that Chevy uses that size means nothing to me. In fact, it dispels some of your "lack of choice" theory.

Additionally, I'd use an Eagle, J&E, Carrillo, Olliver or whatever the budget permits.

This magical twisting Chevy rod, you've seen it; or is it an urban legend??


Never said anyone would mistake the two heads, just saying it's no "insult to injury" that GM chose the Ford windsor port layout and lessened the bolt count.

No "insult" that one would chose different sized rod journals to increase one's choice.

Please school me on a SBC head that uses the symetrical port layout.




The same could be said comparing a 350 to a 383. That's why the heads are available in different port/valve sizes and they're all very close in price between Ford/Chevy.


Not sure what you're saying here.
There's plenty of 351 kits from 392/3 to 408 to 427.


(I know you meant crank journal)

Nothing to follow, just saying you can't throw any crank in to any block like you suggested.



That's not true. Many non-interchanable parts between GenI and II



Then choose a 351 stroker.



The 1st thing you said was there was no choice. I linked stroker kits and AFR heads. You then say having a Ford crank that accepts aftermarket rod sizes is some kind of horrible embarassment even though it allows you the choice you say doesn't exist. Then you said no aftermarket blocks. I linked the blocks.

I then show prices aren't all that different but you insist any difference is substantial. You win.


Tim

 

Hey Tim whats n/m mean?

 

Probably isn't legal in Calif. or on vehicles with a cat and/or O2s. Shure is legal in my 74'.

 

never mind

 

yes, I have a picture of it somewhere, but its not all that magical. ever order a forged crank and see the phrase 'non-twist forging'? Cranks, for example, are typically forged by the press/stamper in a single plane, then a machine grabs a hold of it and literally twists it into shape. non-twist just means the press is far more complex. If you do not excedd a certain radius for material length/thickness, you can bend it and bend it back (yes this means that bent rods can be salvaged)

I think you are missing the point - most v8 makers used siamese ports at one time or another (pontiac, olds, dodge, chevy) and some used symmetical ports (chevy, ford) its just what they happened to design. seeing a symmetrical chevy head is not gonna make someone go 'oh look they copied ford' or you would have to say 'hey look, ford based the windsor on the chevy big block....'

as I pointed out, the journals are not ground by accident so people can use rods that just happen to exist. the chevy rods are far superior - from the factory. somewhere along the line about 30 years ago it was cheaper to grind cranks to accept them, than it was to stamp ones own rods.

return to the OP - why is the 350 more powerful and cheaper than the 351 - each post has shown why: more commitment to HP from the factory, more factory support, more aftermarket support. Volume, begats lower prices. There is no way you can pick up a neutral catalog (i.e. not a GMPP or FMS) and fail to note that for any hard part, way more part choices exist for the chevy, than the ford. As I stated, 10:1 small block, 20:1 (or more) big block

well lets first make sure you understand the NON-Ls1 head arrangements that existed:

stock was, left to right, looking at the exhaust side:

EIIEEIIE. The center exhaust is siamesed, all intakes are siamesed.

the SB2 (most people do not know about the SB2 existence) is essentially 'the nascar engine'

it is

IEIEEIEI the center exhaust is siamesed but the intakes are split

GM part 12480129 is a good example

and lastly, the GM splayed valve head which is

EIEIEIEI GM part 12480146 is the rough casting.

Every one of these head types bolt to the 'Gen 1' 5 bolts per hole block.

These head types are not that hard to derive - you simply change the valve arrangement by tasking cam lobes differently. In todays CNC world its relatively painless.

does the use of each head type dictate a change in intake or exhaust manifold? yes.

ok first make sure you understand the differences:

Gen is 1 essentially every small block from 55-97 including vortec heads, that used standard cooling.

this includes small journal, large journal, 400 journal, centerbolt valve covers, 1 pc or 2 pc seals, timing cover oil fill or not. It also encapsulates the Gen 1+ engines.

gen 2 is restricted to the LT1/LT4 engines from 92-97. these engines use reverse cooling, revised intake ports and a weird distributor. and thats it. every single part can be retrofit but people would ask 'why'?

The raised port intakes for the LT1 and the more raised ports for the LT4 are interesting, but these heads do not have to use reverse cooling as long as a couple passages are blocked off. and raising the ports and floors of the ports is not new - gm has been casting bowtie 'hi ports' for decades, in many different valve angles, and intakes to match. And so has the aftermarket.

Since the block and all the internals are the same you can use a stock distributor if you use an intake manifold that mates to the intake ports and has the proper hole drilled - most people dont know this but on these motors still have a provision for the distributor - its how the oil pump is driven - instead of the dist there is an 'oil pump drive appliance' that is essentially a dist. sawed off at the manifold.

the optispark? not nearly as reliable as a dist and expensive to boot and the complex water pump uses special thermostats and porting to not cold water shock the motor.

What you end up seeing is an LTx motor in the original car, with a vortec style distributor and 'cam sensor'. or you see a different car with Ltx heads on it and nothing else.

Gen 3 motors are the LS from 96 and up

No I said there was limited choice. the fact that you can now get dart ford blocks is a new development. but then again, we are in the CNC world where the tooling is available to many more people.

And keep something else in mind - ford has made a number of motors that qualify as small blocks, so if there is one part for each, that might make it look like close to comparable numbers in parts selection. while you can build a 'clevor' motor, not all that much of the 2 designs interchange. when I say 351, I can be talking W, C or M and each is a different design.

Plus I further qualified my statements, more than once, that of the ford parts that do exist - the majority are for 302s and 302 strokers. this is not the same as saying 'a 351 stroker does not exist', which I never said. Keep in mind, that for a large portion of the 80's and 90's, the 351 was not for sale to the general public except in one configuration in the trucks with a difficult to modify (at the time) EFI system, and ford dumped the marine market. Jon Bennet of Bennet racing made his bones in mustangs with 302s. not 351s. there is a reason. (yes Im dropping that name, I met him and worked with him on a CNC project)

It we are talking 3 bedroom, 2 bath homes in miami, then yes, $1000 is not substantial.

but as I have shown, the base 'performance' engine available from each maker differs by over $1000. If your budget is $3000 for a motor, the ford ate that up. if you are partial to Chevelles instead of Gran Torinos, then chevy drops more hp for $1000 less cost in an emmissions legal engine with a warranty. How much gas does $1000 buy? ok bad example....how many $5 DVDs from walmart does $1000 buy?

As I have shown, my 347 is not the cheapest, but not the most expensive I could have built - I am into it for $5G and the heads are not screwed on yet.

should I have decided to make a 383 for my K2500 instead of a 347 for my F150 (and we can assume the trucks pose equal grief in all other aspects) the 383 would have came together for nearly $1500 less. The percentage difference is going to be larger, the smaller the overall budget is. I am betting 95% of those on this site have $5G or less in the powertrain budget.


Tim [/QUOTE]

 

basically what it boils down to is any idiot can make a chevy run. but you have to know what you are doing to make a ford run.

 

The original question was cost difference between the Ford and Chevy. I have a friend who races late model sportsman. He prefers a Ford but races a Chevy. I asked him why and he said it was simple. He can race a Chevy for $20,000 cheaper per year than a Ford. It's a matter of price and availability of aftermarket performance parts.

 

You are all right on. I wish they would have stayed with the A4 302 (boss) block but no, went to a weaker one. The 351W block is much stronger than the 302 and thin walled 351C (.060 drag race only), but it is hard to beat the "real 351C 2V Aussie head canted valves". With the 351W having thicker walls it makes an excellent motor when made into a "Clevor Windsor" (minor block machining, special pistions and intake)which you put the 351C 2V Aussie heads on a 351W (basically a 302 boss with a stronger block). My Clevor Windsor .060 block does road trips 800 miles one way in a '69 Stang and roast both wide back tires, lots of fun.

 

In my opinion the SB2 engine does not count for the arguement, mostly because it is not a production engine. It has never ben put in a passenger car ment for production. If yall think that the stuff for a ford is exspensive, try building a pontiac. Good luck touching a create engine that makes 400hp for under 10k. Another reason that the SBC is prefered is this, walk into a auto parts store(An all ford store does not cout :lol and see how many SBF parts you can find compared to a SBC. Off topic question what engine does ford use in Nascar?

 

I think also part of it is the highly available customization and performance products available for the 350. Products are EVERYWHERE. The 351W is more searching for the products. They both are equally good engines imo. I think that the 350 is the staple in Chevy's engines. That and the LS1. They are all over the place in projects I see.

 

rambuck has a good point about getting parts. I give my local parts stores a hard time for not carrying parts (stock I always get) for my Windsors (jokingly of course). I own a 69 Mustang 351W and a 79 Thunderbird 351W and lastly my favorite one of all, a small block clevorwindsor (351W block with Cleveland Aussie 2V heads, like the 302 Boss, but with some aftermarket machining twists). I love the Windsor block strength, the heads "ALWAYS" need some help as someone had stated earlier, especially if you are making a bit of a toy. Even my stock 79 Thunderbird motor raps hard and pulls hard with help of a TCI 3500 stall and 3.89 possy gears. The basic power was unbelievable when compared to my use to be stock 69 mustang 351W (trying to share the idea of watching for the right Windsor, there may be a better year to look for, but I don't know but of what I own). I have also ran against many 5.O.'s amd 350's (with the 79 stock motor) they couldn't hang on the 1/4 mile end. Of course I am not comparing the clevorwindsor, my belief is money is what the comparison is for FAST 350 versus 351W.

 

I've got $3k into my 460 and all I've done was gone .030 over, new pistons, rings, cam set, double roller timing set, and gaskets.

Yeah I know, apples and oranges...

Fords are more expensive, and for your average backyard mechanic...that means a lot.

 

Old thread I know.
Yes, the SBC heads out flow the Windsor heads but the Cleveland heads out flow the SBC heads so do a "Clevor".

The Windsor has a better rod length to stroke ratio, that helps it in longevity, horsepower, and torque production compared to the Chevy. In fact, the Chevy 350 has the worst rod length to stroke ratio of ANY V8 engine in the 340-360 size range EVER made! It's barely 1.64 to one while the 351 Windsor, the AMC/Jeep 360, and the Mopar 360 come in at 1.70/1.71 and the current gen Hemi comes in at 1.75! The 351M is 1.88! Even the LS based Chevy 6.0 is 1.68! That's very telling to me. The fact that even Chevy now seems to admit that long rod ratios are better since their newer engines now have gone back in that direction. You can argue the pros and cons of long rods all you want. I think the fact that ALL of the OEMs, even Chevy now, seem to be trying pretty hard to keep those ratios in the 1.70 range (and above) says a lot.

All this talk about the Ford being more expensive to build, what ever happened to you get what you pay for? Still not convinced? OK, how about this: we are talking about an engine that is gonna last 10-20 years after you are finished building it, so let's split the difference and spread that $1,500 out over 15 years. That works out to an extra hundred bucks per year for the privilege of having a superior engine. Seems worth it to me and I'm a cheapskate!
In that same vein, I wouldn't skimp when it comes to heads: give that Windsor some aftermarket heads. It's money well spent and even a "just decent" set will outperform any stock Chevy head. Don't forget the Clevor option.
Regards, Eric

 

Hola man dug it up but id like to add my 2 cents since i know chevys pretty well and had to ask bout ford heads earlier today lol. There was alot of stating of the chevys being the same to 96 not totally true. 55-84 definately just about anything swapped short of the small large and 400 journal cranks. However you cant stroke a 283 or 302 chevy period the bore skirts will not allow anything over the factory 3inch stroke. to put any factory head on the 400 that isnt a 400 head, you have to drill steam holes in the head to prevent over heating. the 305 and 350 share the same stroke but you cant just throw a 305 rod in a 350 without the other 305 rods the weight is WAY different. all sbc except the 400 are internally balanced so you can swap balancers and flywheels/flexplates at will put a 400 balancer on a 350 and youll snap the crank snout off in 50 miles of hard driving. Starting in 85 the 305 and 350 became externally balanced so now you cant swap rods and flywheels with pre 85 parts plus they went to a one piece rear main seal so the oil pan is different. there is way more but im done rambling lol most of you guys may not care but its late and i wanted another post i think this makes 17 lol. Oh and the sb2 heads wont go on a production block the bore spacing is different not sure how far but like half inch off or something