Electric wiper wiring
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From: Bryan, Texas
Electric wiper wiring
Hi all,
I have been having a problem with my wipers. My truck is a 52 F1 that has the optional electric wiper package shown in the shop manual in figure 31 on page 290. While they were kind enough to include a photo and mention that they do exist, they did not include any information or wiring diagrams in the shop manual. I have disassembled the motor and cleaned it and all looks good including the brushes and windings with nothing burnt.
With the way the wipers are currently set up, they have almost no torque. I have to "help" them across their first pass of the windshield to get them moving then they seem to work but not well enough to keep both wiper arms installed at the same time. Voltage is around 7 going to the switch, but I think I may have the wires crossed up from the switch to the motor.
Do any of you have a diagram showing which terminals on the switch connect to which terminals on the motor? There are 3 wires between the two. This same wiper motor may have been available on some passenger cars if any of you have that book and can look for me.
Thanks,
AJ
Bryan, TX
I have been having a problem with my wipers. My truck is a 52 F1 that has the optional electric wiper package shown in the shop manual in figure 31 on page 290. While they were kind enough to include a photo and mention that they do exist, they did not include any information or wiring diagrams in the shop manual. I have disassembled the motor and cleaned it and all looks good including the brushes and windings with nothing burnt.
With the way the wipers are currently set up, they have almost no torque. I have to "help" them across their first pass of the windshield to get them moving then they seem to work but not well enough to keep both wiper arms installed at the same time. Voltage is around 7 going to the switch, but I think I may have the wires crossed up from the switch to the motor.
Do any of you have a diagram showing which terminals on the switch connect to which terminals on the motor? There are 3 wires between the two. This same wiper motor may have been available on some passenger cars if any of you have that book and can look for me.
Thanks,
AJ
Bryan, TX
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Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Marietta, Ohio
Next question: Have you checked that all the linkage and other moving parts are easy to move freely by hand? I realize this is rather obvious but it's better to leave no stone unturned. Also try using a clip ead to directly power the motor and see if it runs any better. I am assuning you are running a 12 volt system since one of your readings was 7 volts. That does seem really low.
later...
later...
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From: Bryan, Texas
The linkage is all free. It is a 12 volt system but all of my accessories are 6 volt originals using resistors to drop the voltage. The 7 volt reading is after the resistor with the wipers running.
I would try jumping the motor past the switch but I'm not sure which of the three wires are supposed to have power and in what sequence. It's a two-speed system and I am getting two distinct speeds out of it as it is, just very low torque. I'm nervous about burning up any of the components as they are nearly impossible to find. I would really like to find a diagram or someone else with this wiper setup that can give me a wire by wire rundown of the connections before I risk any damage by jumping it.
Thanks for the tips.
AJ
I would try jumping the motor past the switch but I'm not sure which of the three wires are supposed to have power and in what sequence. It's a two-speed system and I am getting two distinct speeds out of it as it is, just very low torque. I'm nervous about burning up any of the components as they are nearly impossible to find. I would really like to find a diagram or someone else with this wiper setup that can give me a wire by wire rundown of the connections before I risk any damage by jumping it.
Thanks for the tips.
AJ
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Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Marietta, Ohio
I gave some thought to your situation and I am considering to possibility that there are some other factors involved here. I am not familiar with your particular wiper motor but for many years wiper motors have had a stop position switch bulit into them. This is what causes them to return to the wiper down position when you turn them off. This circuit requires a seperate feed from the power source to bring them back to the stop point when you shut them off. If you motor has this function, that would require one of the three wires going to the motor. That leaves you two wires and the ground through the case of the gearmotor, unless one of your three wires is the ground. If you have a two speed switch it is probably where the speed is controlled. That is most likely done with a resistor. If so, then you may be experiencing low operating voltage because the resistor in the switch is operating in series with your voltage divider resistor. I would suggest eliminating or pinpointing the motor as a problem by using a seperate 6 volt source to directly drive the motor with clip leads. If it works OK that way you have problems with your switch or your resistor step down device. It could be the step down device causing all your problems. There are two basic systems for dropping the voltage. One is the simple resistor which just dissapates the additional voltage in terms of heat and the other is a solid state regualtor circuit that actually regulates the voltage in spite of varying loads caused by turning on and off different accessories. This would be the preferred way of doing the voltage drop. Another thought is spring pressure on the brushes and how clean is the commutator on the armature?
Let me know if you do these tests and what the results were.
Later Man...
Let me know if you do these tests and what the results were.
Later Man...
Post Fiend
Joined: May 2008
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From: Poway, Ca.
Hi Guys,
Well you've picked a toughy this time - at least as far as documentation is concerned. There is no wiring diagram for that motor/switch combination as well yo know, but also there isn't one in the 52-54 Auto Shop manual either - still talking Vacuum wipers there. Lastly, there wasn't one in the 52-54 auto wiring suppliment. Maybe it's time fo rme to draw one up - along with the 1000 other wiring things not in the shop manuals.
But, I recently replaced mine because the passenger side transmission stripped. I took pictures of the wiring, but they were corrupt and would not open (I wish all this stuff that goes corrupt on my computer would at least start bringing home some stolen loot - tee hee).
Anyway, I saved the switch and am going to post some pictures of the wiring posts with some labels for you.
The way this switch operates is that it controls the speed of the motor and also the parking function. When you turn the wipers on, the first detent is "FAST" speed. The next is "Normal." The way the switch works is when the "FAST"speed is selected power is routed to the motor through "BOTH" the fast and normal terminals - thereby doubling the amperage going to the motor. The parking motor functons with a set of breaker points on the switch. When the parking position is reached in the motor, the points open breaking contact and stopping the motor.
The wiring is bundled from the switch to the motor so it is very difficult to get to. Also, it is very brittle. Good news is they should be petrified in the required position and you can check you hook ups relative to the elevated wire used on the parking terminal.
If you want to test the motor, you will want to remove the wire from the "A" terminal and apply 6 volt power and a ground. Remember your reducing resistors such as a Vol-ta-drop do not reduce voltage until there is actually a flow. So regular meter testing of an idle component between th ecomponent and th ereducer is not accurate until the component is energized (I think by the way you worded the post yo knew that). I don't have my motor any more but I would venture to say the hook up points on the motor are labeled the same as the switch. Of course that might be asking asking too much too.
Here are the pictures. Have fun getting up there and getting to those wires. I'd definately drop the switch out.
[IMG]
[/IMG]
Good luck,
Julie
Well you've picked a toughy this time - at least as far as documentation is concerned. There is no wiring diagram for that motor/switch combination as well yo know, but also there isn't one in the 52-54 Auto Shop manual either - still talking Vacuum wipers there. Lastly, there wasn't one in the 52-54 auto wiring suppliment. Maybe it's time fo rme to draw one up - along with the 1000 other wiring things not in the shop manuals.
But, I recently replaced mine because the passenger side transmission stripped. I took pictures of the wiring, but they were corrupt and would not open (I wish all this stuff that goes corrupt on my computer would at least start bringing home some stolen loot - tee hee).
Anyway, I saved the switch and am going to post some pictures of the wiring posts with some labels for you.
The way this switch operates is that it controls the speed of the motor and also the parking function. When you turn the wipers on, the first detent is "FAST" speed. The next is "Normal." The way the switch works is when the "FAST"speed is selected power is routed to the motor through "BOTH" the fast and normal terminals - thereby doubling the amperage going to the motor. The parking motor functons with a set of breaker points on the switch. When the parking position is reached in the motor, the points open breaking contact and stopping the motor.
The wiring is bundled from the switch to the motor so it is very difficult to get to. Also, it is very brittle. Good news is they should be petrified in the required position and you can check you hook ups relative to the elevated wire used on the parking terminal.
If you want to test the motor, you will want to remove the wire from the "A" terminal and apply 6 volt power and a ground. Remember your reducing resistors such as a Vol-ta-drop do not reduce voltage until there is actually a flow. So regular meter testing of an idle component between th ecomponent and th ereducer is not accurate until the component is energized (I think by the way you worded the post yo knew that). I don't have my motor any more but I would venture to say the hook up points on the motor are labeled the same as the switch. Of course that might be asking asking too much too.
Here are the pictures. Have fun getting up there and getting to those wires. I'd definately drop the switch out.
[IMG]
[/IMG]Good luck,
Julie
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From: Bryan, Texas
Sorry for the late reply. I had to spend the last 5 days at my National Guard base without access to internet.
I already see where I have the power coming to the wrong terminal on the switch. Maybe that will fix it. I'm going to keep messing with the wipers tomorrow and will let you know if it helps the problem.
Thanks to both of you for the input.
AJ
I already see where I have the power coming to the wrong terminal on the switch. Maybe that will fix it. I'm going to keep messing with the wipers tomorrow and will let you know if it helps the problem.
Thanks to both of you for the input.
AJ
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Joined: Jul 2004
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From: NM
Julie, that is good info, but your switch doesn't look at all like mine, specifically that "points" looking thing. No question, mine could be messed up, and the usual sources (as you note) are completely devoid of any help.
The parking function on mine is on the motor; when one of the driving arms rotates, it makes/breaks a contact on a bakelite plate. As the arm passes thru the park position, the contact is open and the motor will not get power if the dash switch is in the Off position. Conversely, if you turn the switch to Off, but the wipers are still away from the park position, the contact is closed and will continue to feed power to the motor until it gets to the park position. I can try to get a picture.
Looking at your switch, I'd bet that "points" looking thing is actually a voltage regulator, that drops voltage in the Lo speed mode. Can you confirm? My motor only has two leads to the field coils; one has to be a ground. There is no continuity between either wire and ground (i.e., they are the two ends of the field coil windings).
AJ, mine behaved exactly like yours on the original 6v system. My parking switch on the wiper assembly is broken, but the motor was still getting full voltage. Bottom line, everyone who I know with the original electric system has junked it. Even on straight 12v, mine acted like it was stirring concrete, very slow. Mine was freshly greased, too.
The parking function on mine is on the motor; when one of the driving arms rotates, it makes/breaks a contact on a bakelite plate. As the arm passes thru the park position, the contact is open and the motor will not get power if the dash switch is in the Off position. Conversely, if you turn the switch to Off, but the wipers are still away from the park position, the contact is closed and will continue to feed power to the motor until it gets to the park position. I can try to get a picture.
Looking at your switch, I'd bet that "points" looking thing is actually a voltage regulator, that drops voltage in the Lo speed mode. Can you confirm? My motor only has two leads to the field coils; one has to be a ground. There is no continuity between either wire and ground (i.e., they are the two ends of the field coil windings).
AJ, mine behaved exactly like yours on the original 6v system. My parking switch on the wiper assembly is broken, but the motor was still getting full voltage. Bottom line, everyone who I know with the original electric system has junked it. Even on straight 12v, mine acted like it was stirring concrete, very slow. Mine was freshly greased, too.
Post Fiend
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 7,641
Likes: 21
From: Poway, Ca.
Julie, that is good info, but your switch doesn't look at all like mine, specifically that "points" looking thing. No question, mine could be messed up, and the usual sources (as you note) are completely devoid of any help. Yeah the documantation in this case is pretty bad (actually non existant). With that in mind, I can't help but wonder if more than one manufacturer could have been used. Both could be right. The best solution comes in a box from Newport Engineering.
The parking function on mine is on the motor; when one of the driving arms rotates, it makes/breaks a contact on a bakelite plate. As the arm passes thru the park position, the contact is open and the motor will not get power if the dash switch is in the Off position. Conversely, if you turn the switch to Off, but the wipers are still away from the park position, the contact is closed and will continue to feed power to the motor until it gets to the park position. I can try to get a picture.
Looking at your switch, I'd bet that "points" looking thing is actually a voltage regulator, that drops voltage in the Lo speed mode. Can you confirm? Well, that's an interesting point Could very well be. When I took my meter to this, it indicated that on the high position, both output terminals were hot, and the points terminal wasn't. But in the low position only the "Normal" was hot. An interesting feature of this switch is that when rotating it from the first (high speed position) clockwise to the normal position, not only does the switch rotate, but the shaft rises slightly as though the rotating contact plate was being lifted inside the switch body. I believed that it was raising to contact the bottom of the frame going around the points creating a magnetic pull to open them. My motor only has two leads to the field coils; one has to be a ground. There is no continuity between either wire and ground (i.e., they are the two ends of the field coil windings). Might be two windings for two speeds? Not sure. Mine was grounded through it's mounts to the frame - which was also unusual because most of the electrical stuff on the trucks had dedicated ground wires. On my set up, if I remember correctly from when I tested mine, there is an excentric on the drivers side arm of the wiper motor. It raises and lowers a contact point which provides a ground. When the arm moves to the park position the ground is lost.
While that ground is compete (the wiper arm is out of the parked position) and the switch is turned to the off position, power is turned off through the two regular feeds, and to the contact inside the switch magnetizing the arm around the points, causing the points to spring closed, maintaining power to the motor until the ground eccentric opens. I think
And I think they did that to prevent the motor from parking each time it hit the low point on the motor eccentric- a primitive relay sort of thing. But I could be wrong. AJ, mine behaved exactly like yours on the original 6v system. My parking switch on the wiper assembly is broken, but the motor was still getting full voltage. Bottom line, everyone who I know with the original electric system has junked it. Even on straight 12v, mine acted like it was stirring concrete, very slow. Mine was freshly greased, too.
The parking function on mine is on the motor; when one of the driving arms rotates, it makes/breaks a contact on a bakelite plate. As the arm passes thru the park position, the contact is open and the motor will not get power if the dash switch is in the Off position. Conversely, if you turn the switch to Off, but the wipers are still away from the park position, the contact is closed and will continue to feed power to the motor until it gets to the park position. I can try to get a picture.
Looking at your switch, I'd bet that "points" looking thing is actually a voltage regulator, that drops voltage in the Lo speed mode. Can you confirm? Well, that's an interesting point Could very well be. When I took my meter to this, it indicated that on the high position, both output terminals were hot, and the points terminal wasn't. But in the low position only the "Normal" was hot. An interesting feature of this switch is that when rotating it from the first (high speed position) clockwise to the normal position, not only does the switch rotate, but the shaft rises slightly as though the rotating contact plate was being lifted inside the switch body. I believed that it was raising to contact the bottom of the frame going around the points creating a magnetic pull to open them. My motor only has two leads to the field coils; one has to be a ground. There is no continuity between either wire and ground (i.e., they are the two ends of the field coil windings). Might be two windings for two speeds? Not sure. Mine was grounded through it's mounts to the frame - which was also unusual because most of the electrical stuff on the trucks had dedicated ground wires. On my set up, if I remember correctly from when I tested mine, there is an excentric on the drivers side arm of the wiper motor. It raises and lowers a contact point which provides a ground. When the arm moves to the park position the ground is lost.
While that ground is compete (the wiper arm is out of the parked position) and the switch is turned to the off position, power is turned off through the two regular feeds, and to the contact inside the switch magnetizing the arm around the points, causing the points to spring closed, maintaining power to the motor until the ground eccentric opens. I think
And I think they did that to prevent the motor from parking each time it hit the low point on the motor eccentric- a primitive relay sort of thing. But I could be wrong. AJ, mine behaved exactly like yours on the original 6v system. My parking switch on the wiper assembly is broken, but the motor was still getting full voltage. Bottom line, everyone who I know with the original electric system has junked it. Even on straight 12v, mine acted like it was stirring concrete, very slow. Mine was freshly greased, too.Wiper switches, instrument light dimmers and heater switches are all terribly intollerant of step down resisters. On mine with the original electric wipers on normal cycle from parking position to parking position would normally take almost 3 seconds.
Julie
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Junior User
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: Bryan, Texas
Hi all,
I checked out the wiring again and switched up the wiring to match your photos. I did have the hot wire initially going to the park terminal.
Unfortunately, switching up the wires did nothing for the lack of torque. I live in the flatlands and am seriously considering going with a vacuum set despite their poor performance on hills and under hard acceleration. It rains so seldom here that I doubt it'll matter. I'd buy the new set but that's a ton of money for broke student. As long as it can pass state inspections, It's all I need.
Thanks,
AJ
I checked out the wiring again and switched up the wiring to match your photos. I did have the hot wire initially going to the park terminal.
Unfortunately, switching up the wires did nothing for the lack of torque. I live in the flatlands and am seriously considering going with a vacuum set despite their poor performance on hills and under hard acceleration. It rains so seldom here that I doubt it'll matter. I'd buy the new set but that's a ton of money for broke student. As long as it can pass state inspections, It's all I need.
Thanks,
AJ
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Joined: Oct 2008
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From: Rockwall TX
i have the same thing going on in my 59 pick up with my electric wipers except that they work for a minute than stop. after i let them sit for a minute they will work again i havent done any thing to them yet because i never think about it till it rains and it never rains. any ideas
Post Fiend
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 7,641
Likes: 21
From: Poway, Ca.
Hi all,
I checked out the wiring again and switched up the wiring to match your photos. I did have the hot wire initially going to the park terminal.
Unfortunately, switching up the wires did nothing for the lack of torque. I live in the flatlands and am seriously considering going with a vacuum set despite their poor performance on hills and under hard acceleration. It rains so seldom here that I doubt it'll matter. I'd buy the new set but that's a ton of money for broke student. As long as it can pass state inspections, It's all I need.
Thanks,
AJ
I checked out the wiring again and switched up the wiring to match your photos. I did have the hot wire initially going to the park terminal.
Unfortunately, switching up the wires did nothing for the lack of torque. I live in the flatlands and am seriously considering going with a vacuum set despite their poor performance on hills and under hard acceleration. It rains so seldom here that I doubt it'll matter. I'd buy the new set but that's a ton of money for broke student. As long as it can pass state inspections, It's all I need.
Thanks,
AJ
i have the same thing going on in my 59 pick up with my electric wipers except that they work for a minute than stop. after i let them sit for a minute they will work again i havent done any thing to them yet because i never think about it till it rains and it never rains. any ideas
Can I ask a really stupid question - not meant to be insulting but just in case?
Are you guys testing these wipers with dry windshields, or are you squirting them with the garden hose while they run? Not only are they slow but not very powerful either.
Just for future reference:
New Port Engineering - Home of the Clean Wipe Wiper-Drive
Good Luck!
J!
Senior User
Joined: Oct 2008
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From: Rockwall TX
gosh of corse im testing it with a wet windshield who wouldnt? just playing um iv only used them in the rain. i havent actually messed with except yelling at them when its 12:00 at night when its pooring down rain. i was just wondering if any one has had this problem nd knows the solution? or any ideas