If no one ever bought new, then all of the plants, domestic and transplant, would close and it would be just like Cuba. At 58k average trade-in mileage, the second owner should get about that much use also on a modern car, hopefully, before the transmission blows. I would have thought, with three year leases and all that the average mileage would be lower.

A lot of people just want shiny new stuff. Its not by any means a new phenomenon. My dad traded every 2-4 years in the 1950's and 1960's just because. I fell into the same trap in the 1980's.

Jim

 

"And look at what is happening to the economy where we, as a nation, are only buying about half as many new cars as "normal". "

The economy is in the latrine because of the whole mortgage-backed securities mess, and the automakers plight is a consequence rather than a cause.

Note that the automotive portion of the economy was based on accelerated consumption beyond necessary replacement rate. Automakers were able to sustain excess capacity because of this. A market not based on overheated consumption will of course be different, and as we know from our own trucks and cars it is often practical to keep and use a vehicle for many years.

 

I for one can vouch for the Prius. My mother in law has an '05 that she bought new. It's got over 70k on it and gets 42mpg highway, and she's seen as high 67 in town on the boulevards in Florida where they like to vacation. It get regular maintenance at the Toyota dealer (one of the best in the state of ohio). My sister in law bought a '00 and it does 36 on the road and ~42 mixed. Her (my sis-law's) father in law has a '98 or ;99 (first year in the states) that's got over 150k on it and it still has the original batteries with no problems at all.

 

There are a lot of flashy hybrids in the market. You would really be drawn into buying it because of its being eco-friendly. However, maintenance-wise, I'd advise you to just get a brand new non-hybrid car. At least the repairs and parts are way more affordable.

 

Thing is, so are lead acid batteries, so no difference there.
I still know people who hate fuel injection on gas cars, even though for the most part it has proven superior to carbs. As they are more regularly produced, they will become more economical to build, which will make them better to buy. The maintenance will also become more economical. There will be plenty of brave souls that will take the lead and the chance, and buy them, making them over time a better vehicle. If I had the money to risk, I would consider it, since they actually are producing cars that have a decent look, instead of the crappy look of the Prius. Sorry, just can't get into their look. My biggest drawback to buying one is I have a lot of highway time. That kills their mileage. I can get better mileage on my old Cavalier than many of the hybrids do on the open road. In town, they excel. Highway, they suck... For me, until that balance can be beat, I can't justify one in my drive. I don't do enough city time to begin to justify.

 

I had done a lot of research before buying the Prius. Most of the comments of the batteries and other issues are so and so said, not first hand issues. I could not find any first hand complaints by current or previous owners. All of the people who had / have them love them. They are a lot roomier than they appear.

They are classified as mid-sized not a compact like the Cobalt, Jetta or Focus. Real life mileage on the ones we have are 45-48 mpg hwy. and 47-56 city.

I have owned a VW (2004) TDI Jetta, mpg around 36 city and 45 hwy. Very nice car, it is not without maintenance issues. It was just a little too small for us.

A girl who works for me has a 2007 Focus mileage is around 35 mpg hwy, I don't know city.

Cost of the Prius compared to the Jetta is about the same for the same equipment.

Hope this information helps.
ck

 

I was basing my mileage numbers off the EPA rating. Good to hear the real life numbers are better. Do you do anything other than drive normal? I know some do the trick of letting off the pedal to get the charge from the braking instead of the motor. Kind of annoying to run up on one that has started to do that...

 

I play with it occasionaly but, usually just drive it. I am sure my wife just drives hers and the one in the service routes probably goes faster than anything.

ck

 

Well..... Dont try this at home

Especially not in a prius ;-)

'Farfromfueling!'

 

Hey Quad, would you PLEASE stop posting the outright LIE that hybrid batteries need to be replaced every four years? It is absolute nonsense and I believe you know it. I have had both of my hybrids for going on four years now and neither one of them has had ANY hybrid related problems. The maintenance on them is actually less then a normal Escape since the engine runs much less per mile driven. There is one additional filter for the battery that needs to be changed every 20k miles. Takes less than two minutes and costs about ten bucks. This is more than offset by the 10,000 mile oil change interval.

The high voltage batteries (and the CV tranmission and the inverter, etc.) are warrantied for 10 years and 150,000 miles. There have been very very few failures in all the Escape hybrids made. Probably well under the statistical norm for catastrophic failures for any type of vehicle. I've heard of a "few" Superduties having major problems but I would never recommend someone not buy one....

If you don't LIKE the new technology, if you don't understand it, don't want to accept it, that is fine. But to spew nonsense lies about the hybrids does a disservice to the original poster who asked for feedback based on experience of owning or driving a hybrid - not anecdotal or third-party or fabricated nonsense.

To the OP, if you do a lot of city or urban/semi-rural driving, hybrids are a great choice. I bought mine when gas was two bucks a gallon and I believe I will see a payback in their lifetime. If you do all highway driving and like to run 70 mph, you may not see a payback but you will still get very good mileage. I can personally highly recommend the Escape hybrid.....twice.

 

Did by any chance you actualy *read* my post and follow the link? It said not one word about the batteries. In fact, it was not even about hybrids 'cuz no hybrid can do what they did.

But as for the general case of hybrid batteries - we can only quote the various bloggy things on the web where owners say they failed. If-n that aint good enuf for you - well it aint. And we didnt even mention the inverters which dont have a replacement schedule - they just fail)

Hybrid technology still aint there yet. Close, but not quite.

As my only post on the OP pointed out - unless your driving is utterly confined to the city and money is no object, a hybrid is not a monetary savings. Gallons yes, dollars no.

 

Actually I was referring to this portion of your earlier post in the thread.

The battery packs are designed to outlast the vehicle. They do not have a replacement schedule and except for rare exceptions, do not fail.

Another myth that I continuously need to debunk (and can backup with receipts) is that hybrids do lousy on the highway. My last tank in the '05 was over 467 miles and 230 of that was a round trip to my base out in Western Massachusetts. I still averaged 34.8 mpg for the tank. My '01 Focus couldn't even do that and it only had the 2.0 liter.

Look, I am a huge fan of diesels but until they become maintenance free and clean enough to be sold in my state AND are put in a small SUV like the Escape, they aren't going to cut it. I'd love to see a Ford Escape diesel. I'd buy one in a second.

 

Oh....and you were able to read that one but not this one later the same day:

It was a pretty clear expose of the economics. As I demonstrated, they will not save $$, just gallons.

If your goal is to be green - perhaps a hybrid if rich. If your goal is to be frugal - there are plenty of other options that will run for decades on the gas bought by the cost difference.

Battery packs, regardless of type, suffer hysteresis. NiCad and NiMH are among the worst, LiIon, among the best. After one hot period, or one cold period, it is no longer 'the same as it was', battery life drops - mileage decreases. Physics, is consistent with real word experience.

About what a prius sized gas car gets. It trade my D if it got that bad. I expect 45-48mpg per tank, every tank.

they have invented a maint free car? they have not even invented a maint free battery yet....

there are exactly 2 makers offering D's 50state wide at this moment.

If the market develops, I am sure one will be built.

The most advanced powertrain combinations worldwide are coming out of VAG. They have curiously left this market alone.

They also increased profits sickly the last few years. Connection? you be the judge.

 

I read the post and disregarded it because it is irrelevant. Your numbers are made up. I have saved over $5000 in gas cost since I got my Escapes. I will break even - I save gas and thus save dollars. If I keep them long enough (and I may since I like the cars that much) I will be money ahead.

I'm not rich by any stretch. But, the cars I drive are a perfect combination of size, utility and get great mileage. I could not get all my work gear in a Jetta or a new Beetle (or my Focus for that matter) and forget about going to some of the work sites I need to carry that gear.

The batteries don't develop a memory because they are conditioned and are managed by the computer to make sure they last a long time. When it is extremely cold, they are heated. When it is very hot they are cooled. My mileage has improved in both cars over three and a half years. Your theory of decreasing mileage is not borne out by reality. I'll repeat, the batteries are designed to outlast the car.

You can rant about how great diesels are all you want and for the most part I won't disagree with you. They are fuel efficient and the technology has come very far since they started to be computer controlled and turbo-charged. Our 1978 Olds D wagon got well over 20 mpg on many family road trips. Shame the head gaskets went at 63,000 miles. But, right now my preference and my needs call for a small SUV. There isn't another one on the road that will average anywhere close to what I get for milage in the type of driving I do. I trust the technology, I believe in it, and I rely on it. My personal experience is it works. You have nothing to back up your negative ideas and comments but theories and heresay - none of which you can back up at all.

And yes, the batteries in the hybrids are maintenance free. They are sealed in a box and if the pack fails, it is replaced. I kinda hope mine fail right before the 10 year warranty is up so I can get new ones that will go another 10 years.

 

Yeah, i can see how dividing 150000 by $4 for gas would be made up....

batteries, suffer hystersis. period. I will entertain no fantasy on this. voltage depression does occur. Even if it is limited to only 10% (highly unlikely) then you have lowered the efficiency by 10%. 10% effect is easy to calculate. there is no technology to prevent this. If you did invent technology to prevent this, you would be

a) a quadrillionaire
b) have every replacement battery company putting a contract on your life.

Or put simpler - your cell phone and camera likely used NiMH and has for well over a decade. Is there or is there not a replacement cell phone/camera battery market?