How much horsepower does a 429 and a 460 big block ford have? - Yahoo! Answers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_To...Specifications

It s hard to look at the old books because they changed the way they rated HP.

 

The only way you can do this type of comparison fairly is take 2 engines, build them identical with the same compression ratio, same cam specs and either bone stock original heads or equally ported or allow both to use upgraded versions. example first post shows a 400 with aussie heads and a 460 with the stock "smog" era heads, allow the switch to the early C8VE heads (but use a piston to keep compression down to equal with the 400) then the 460 is using an "rv" type cam which is flat tappet hyd, and the 400 is using a hyd roller cam. That 400 has a LOT of added stuff that the 460 doesn't just to get equal to it. So it's comparing apples to tomatoes and really doesn't help the cause of the 400.

The other way you can do a comparison is give equal dollars into each build and see where they go. but either way the bigger engine will win, just like doing an equal build between a 351 (don't even care which one) and a 400 with equal components and equal compression etc the 400 will win hands down everytime. compare a 302 to a 351 same thing.

Now showing nice good performing builds with the 400 on a budget with good numbers like you do is great and I love to read about them all day long (I spend more time reading in here just seeing what is being done with the 335 series engines and keeping up with what everyone is doing)

but since not caring about the differences like roller cams vs flat tappets really doesn't help. I would never consider trying to use my 528 to compare against anyones 400 it's not a fair comparison.

 

i think this could be, or could have been a good thread.

Alot of people have been in the situation i was where you either decide to put X amount of dollars in a L&L conversion kit and a 429-460+ engine or put the same amount of money in your 351m-400. i was on the 460 side but decided to go with a 400. i figured it would be 6500+ dollars to get a 425hp crate 460 in my truck and it still would have a flat tappet cam and not be built for a 4x4 truck. I went with a 410ci aussie headed(ported), custom ground hyd. roller with bee hives, tmi pistons, arp bolts, 351c4v intake/plate deal . i should make as much hp with a better torque curve, more reliable cam and not need to convert to a different engine style and spend less money doing it.

i'm not saying a 460 wouldnt be nice but in my case spending more money to have the same power was not the best option.

EDIT-and i still can tell the gullible chevy guys its a stock 351m with a 4 barrel intake and carb on it

 

A local engine builder around here has told me that they have seen alot of problems with hydraulic roller lifters not standing up to higher rpm use... Has anyone else heard that?? From what he was saying, anything above 7000 and they were coming apart ( in a 472 BBF)

In my opinion, the best way to get a representation of where power is, and how much can be made by the 400, and by a 460 is not to limit money, or parts, but to set a goal in HP and TQ, run the engine on the dyno to ensure they both meet the required HP and TQ numbers set, and then go back and do a list of labor costs, parts costs, and other related costs to get that engine to reach that level of performance.

If i had the money, or the sponsorship to build a bas A** (those were asterisks, not the language filter, same thing i did before) 400 to put into my new truck i would, instead of going the 460/472/514 route with it.

I really believe there is a ton of power to be made with the 400, and whether its in the cam grind, compression ratio, cylinder head choice, chamber design, intake design, etc.... it is there and will be found..


With the following that the 400 is starting to get as of now, i dont see it being too far off in time that 400 and cleveland parts will be slowly coming down in price to where they will be in a position where they can be built dollar for dollar and be equal to, if not more powerful than the 385 series engine.

The more interest there is now, the more parts that will be designed, the more cam grinds people will try, the more heads will be designed, and eventually the better the product available to us all will be.

Can you think about just the possibilities with one new cylinder head design?

That new cylinder head can be bolted on to a shortblock that is already proven to produce an average TQ of 500+ and average HP of 630+ to see what benefits it has. Then new camshafts can be designed to find the best match for the bigger, better flowing heads...


Im rambling, but hopefully someone gets my point.

 

Just a couple of comments.

1. I'm a 400 guy but there's nothing wrong with a 460. If I had started with one I probably would have stayed with it. Like the 400 they had no guts in the early emmision days. They also aren't known for good flowing heads and are heavier that a 400. Better heads are available for both these days.

2. Hyd. rollers have a lot of enertia and are harder to control. They generally aren't good in extremely high rpm situations. They are very good at making wide flat torque bands. Neither of these engines is usually built for real high rpm use.

3. There no substitute for cubic inches except! Weight is antihorsepower and the 460 is heavier.

4. Lets don't beat each other up. Best up ton he Chevy guys!

 

Just a couple of comments.

1. I'm a 400 guy but there's nothing wrong with a 460. If I had started with one I probably would have stayed with it. Like the 400 they had no guts in the early emmision days. They also aren't known for good flowing heads and are heavier that a 400. Better heads are available for both these days.

2. Hyd. rollers have a lot of enertia and are harder to control. They generally aren't good in extremely high rpm situations. They are very good at making wide flat torque bands. Neither of these engines is usually built for real high rpm use.

3. There no substitute for cubic inches except! Weight is antihorsepower and the 460 is heavier.

4. Lets don't beat each other up. Beat up on the Chevy guys!

 

Tim,

Great posts as usual. Keep them coming.

--J

 

I'm bookmarking this..

if you had a choice from the factory of a truck with a 400 or 460, you would be retarded to get the 400.. but now, especially with tmi around, you can build a 400 for dirt cheap. Probably get similer if not more torque per dollar than if you were going to buy a 460 and swap it in depending on how cheap you got the 460.

noone can deny the 460 can be taken much, much further. We have a drag strip here with a lot of really fast cars, most, if not all of the Fords are 460 based. Hell, don't they still start with 460s in F'n monster trucks?

 

Well again I did not want to run down the 460, I just wanted to throw a few items out there for people to think about before they do the work & $$ in swapping for the 460.

 

I know what people think about Dyno Simulator runs, but I have on several occasions done Dyno Sims comparisons between a 400 and 460.
These were built with the same CR, and identical cam. They were mild builds with about 270 duration. BTW, Comp cams offers some of the same cams for both motors.

The 460 as you would expect was the winner in the low RPM torque, but the 400 actually produced higher peak HP.
This is due to better head flow of stock 400 heads. The stock 460 exhaust flow is really poor. I used published flow data for D0VE 429 heads, and flow data for 2V cleveland heads. This was to eliminate the effects of smog regulations on both motors.

 

I agree with danlee. The 460 is heavier both internally and externally which distracts some from it's cubic inch advantage. Keep in mind the 400 was derived from the 351C.

 

it has always amazed me how people believe that the 400 is sssoooo much lighter then a 460. REAL weight difference stock is less then 50lbs that translates into less then 1 tenth in the quarter mile for an advantage. also there is really very little similarity between a 400 and a 351C IF you really get into it. Yes it uses the same heads, same dist (which is also the same as the 429/460) and same cams but that is where the similarities stop. And as to lighter weight internally a 400 crank stock is 4lbs lighter then a 460.

Truth is a 400 is actually closer to a 429/460 then a 351C in most aspects. actually the cleveland heads which were taken from the 302 boss heads originally which was patterned after----- the 429/460 heads. The 400 is a diminutive version of the 429, same basic design for the heads (canted valves and the cants are similar) same thin wall casting method on the blocks, same design of oiling system (yes I think the 460 oiling system sucks too) plus uses the large 3" diameter main bearings like the 460 instead of the smaller Cleveland size, and even uses the same bell housing.

Once again I am not slamming the 400, I have had a couple of them and never really had any issues with them. I know they cna be built pretty stout although for all out drag motor your actually better off with the 351c (it is a small block, lighter smaller and has the smaller main bearings which are better for high rpm use) Kaase has once again proven what can be done with a 400 and it's impressive as always from him. But then again Kaase is IMHO a genius and nothing he does can be compared to anyone else, I swear the man could win engine masters with a B&S and he is a really neat person to just sit and talk to also.

But to try and boost an engine artificially by using false "advantages" (weight etc) or using apples and oranges comparisons (comparing a basic stock hyd flat tappet rebuild vs a built hyd roller cam motor) does no one any good and in hte end will disappoint someone that is reading it thinking they are getting an apples for apples motor for less.

the 400 has and always will have it's place, and thanks to tim and others is getting cheaper to built and make a decent street performance motor out of. You can show a huge advantage over the 429/460 just on cost since the 400 was standard in many many trucks (or the 351M which can be turned into one easily enough) where with the bigger motor you not only have to do the build which isn't any cheaper but also have to do the swap. Currently for parts choices the 460 has the advantage of coarse but in parts that are used on street driven trucks that advantage disappears.

in all out race/power applications though unless there is a cid limit the 460 based engines will win out even without stroking. The heads just are capable of more flow and like in the last paragraph the the parts availability is o much better. Yes I know Dan (shaazam) made over 700hp out of a 400, he also blew it up several times and never lasted very long (I would have to look but I believe it made it to 3 pulls) but he is just ONE guy that made serious power out of one. I made a 900hp 460 based motor that is 5yrs old and still running without anything more then yearly tear down and replace the bearings once. Dan has since switched to a 460 based motor since the places he pulls did away with the cid restrictions and has said he will never go back and wishes he had just went to the 460 to start with.

Like I said, just trying to keep things honest. It looks more credible, and the people reading, asking questions and learning will be so much better served having the right information.

 

302 "Boss" engines used Cleveland heads, period. No relation to 460. 460's are noted for not flowing well with stock heads. 4# of rotating mass is quite significant, actually it's huge. The 400 is not a smaller version of the 460. While a few things enterchange they are completly differerent engines hence the 335 series designation for 351c, 351m and 400.

The 400 was developed "from the 351C" specifically as a lighter replacemnet for the 460.

On and by the way. 460 = 720# / 400 = 575. I believe that's 145# difference.

Just a few facts.

You can learn more at sites such as Bubba's, or on this site in the tech section.

 

actually you might want to do your own research before jumping on mine. 460 was introduced in 1968 the Boss 302 came out in 1969 the heads were designed using the same configuration and engineering design as the 460.

and the you really need to go pick up and weigh the parts for a 400 then do the same for a 351c then a 460 to see wrong you are. I know full well what the designation of the 400 is (and you are wrong as to why it was built BTW, it was built to fill in the gap in production and was actually never intended to be continued)

 

BTW, the last time I tried Bubba's M block site was gone.