Hi!

I have a 1997 Ford F-150 4x4 Off-Road truck with only 70,000 miles on it. The truck is immaculate and very well maintained. Lately, the 4x4 hasn't been working right. I don't use the truck to go "muddin", but I do occasionally use it to pull a horse trailer. The trailer is parked on the grass, which can get quite muddy. I was just told that there is a problem with the 4x4 binding up. They said I need a clutch pak in the rear end.

Can anyone explain what that is? This an an Off-Road truck. Why would there be a problem like this on a 4x4 Off-Road truck? It was designed to go through anything.....

Thanks!


Have a Great Day! :-)

 

I'm not sure I understand what the problem is? The clutch pack in the rear end is probably to rebuild the Ford Traction Lok limited slip in the rear differential (assuming that the truck came with the LSD). These clutch packs wear out with time; I've seen it suggested 30-50K miles. But that shouldn't have anything to do with the 4x4 binding. What do you mean that it's binding?

 

The service technician that looked at the truck put the folling comments on my price quote "check 4x4. Turning corners, it grabs. Clutch pak in rear end noisy. Should be changed".

I had taken the truck into Ford to have it checked. I know it sounds strange, but when I put the truck in 4x4, it seemed as if the rear wheels wouldn't turn when I tried to turn a corner. The front ones would "pull" the truck, but it sounded (and looked) as if the rear ones just locked up and were being dragged behind the front. I could feel a very strong resistance from the rear of the truck. Everything would be fine again when I took the truck out of four wheel drive.

Now, the technician told me that this problem was my fault. He said that dirt and mud had gotten up underneath the truck, into the 4x4, and that I should have power washed the truck underneath everytime I drove on mud or sand. He also told me that he had only seen this kind of thing happen once before. By the way, the truck is an extended cab, and he told me when I power washed it, I should aim the hose underneath the body, in the area where the third door is. That's where he said the dirt and mud buildup would cause a problem...?

To give a little background...My truck is immaculate. Extremely clean. People think it's new. I don't use it very much to pull my horse trailer, but when I do, it's mainly on non-hilly roads. Most of the places I park the trailer are either pavement or gravel. For a short time (3 months), it was parked on a grassy area in the spring, and the area did turn to mud due to lots of rain. I had to use my 4x4 to get the trailer out and the truck did kick up some mud in the process. This wasn't an everyday thing. It probably only happened about 10 times and then summer hit and there wasn't any more mud.

Also, they say this was the cause of the "Engine check" light coming on. They told me the mud dirtied up the O2 sensor.

Being a woman, I'm not sure if I'm being taken for a ride here. This truck is supposed to be "off road", you know, "Ford tough". I certainly haven't been tough on it, so I'm having a hard time believing that something like this would be happening to a truck that has been taken care of.

 

You came to the right place. Mud dirtying up the O2 sensor? You're being taken for a ride big time. The o2 sensor, if you don't know what it is, is screwed into the exhaust pipe and measures the exhaust gases. In other words, it's sealed away from any kind of dirt, the important part of it is in the exhaust pipe. Also, there is no way for the mud to get "into the 4x4" and cause a malfunction, everything is bolted/sealed. I can't help much further then that, but, do yourself a favor and never take your truck to that place again. They see a woman and think they know nothing and try to get them into buying/replacing things that don't need to be. My cousin went to a dealer to get a leak fixed, dealer wanted 450 bucks and meineki wanted 90 bucks.


Primary rig is Green Thunder:
95' F-150 XLT 4x4, 302, 5 spd, MSD 6A, Flowmaster Exhaust, Sunroof, Clear corners w/ Diamond headlights, CD player with 2 10" subs and some 32" BFG Muds .

Thats it for now, saving for a stang. Check out my Gallery for a look-see.


Justin - One Happy FTE Member

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 08-Oct-02 AT 08:19 AM (EST)]Thanks for your input. The place that gave me all this information was the Ford Dealership I bought the truck from. If you can't trust them, who can you trust? I've heard so many good things about Ford Trucks that I just can't believe all the things that are going wrong with mine. I already had a Pitman arm replaced, which I was told is unusual. Plus, there were a couple other things that went wrong, but I don't remember what. And then, with my truck being "off-road", I was told there was some sort of metal "plate" or something to protect the underside of the truck from dirt and stuff.

Anyways, the kicker with the clutch pak was that they told me what was wrong with the truck and they gave me a price quote. I told them to go ahead and order the Clutch Pak and they never did. I've called a couple more times to see if it's in and they've told me no. I asked if they even ordered it and they said maybe it got lost but they'd check. Here it is, three months later, and I've called them again and asked them to order it. They say it'll be in in about a week and they'll call me when it show up. Why would they tell me something is wrong with my truck and then not bother to order the part? This is a FORD DEALERSHIP for cryin' out loud.

I've taken my truck to another repair shop that I used to trust. Unfortunately, they've taken me for a ride more than once on this truck, too. Something always seems to go wrong the day after they look at it. And, their price to fix this "clutch pak" was $600-1100 dollars, while Ford was around $450.

Oh yeah, the non-Ford place I took the truck to told me I needed two new O2 sensors at $112.50 each + labor (since the Check Engine light had come on). I called the Ford dealership to ask them about it and they asked "Which two O2 sensors?".

Are there "two sets" of O2 sensors? Ford indicated to me that there were four total O2 sensors.....

How do I find a trustworthy place to take my truck? Should I try another Ford Dealership? Should I complain to Ford? I don't know of anyone who has a good mechanic to recommend other than the "guy down the street", but the guy that works out of his home usually can't do the advanced stuff and they aren't a "real" shop, so you have no recourse.....

 

Been thinking about this one, it sounds like what might be happening is the limited slip is binding in the rear end. Others may correct me if I'm wrong, but this can be caused by not using the right lube in the differential or not putting in "friction modifier" with the lube. I wonder if your differential is asking for a lube change? The process of changing the fluid rear fluid will (usually) allow you (or your mechanic) to open the differential and visually inspect to differential and see if there are any contaminants that could be causing it to bind up.
What kind of transfer case does it have? Do you have 2H 4H and 4L options or is it a control trac type that has 4auto options?

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 09-Oct-02 AT 08:16 AM (EST)]I had read of another truck owner that had a similar problem. The problem was the axle gears. The gears in the front axle were one size different than the gears in the back axle. When 4x4 was selected the front tires would spin a little faster and drag the slower turning rear wheels. The truck rolled out of the factory with both axle tags reading the same ratio. But with the vehicle on jackstands and the driveshaft vs. tire rotation was checked. The problem became obviouse.

In this situation you should notice no problem in 2 wheel drive. Only in 4 wheel drive.

I just reread your post. You said you were TOLD of 4x4 binding. It sounds like you haven't experienced any problem firsthand? I agree with the above post and seek another opinion.

At a minimum have the rearend fluid changed and it does require Ford Friction Modifier. Just good preventative maintenance.
Hope this helps...
Chris

 

Well, now you've learned your lesson. You have to ask for a second or even third opinion. The reason you "think" your ford has "broke" so much, is because I bet it wasn't broken at all and they just said it was. Dealerships are the worst, even it it's ford or not. I ALWAYS come here to FTE to diagnose a problem and then go to my mechanic (if i had to) and ask him to do something for me. I will ask what he thinks first, and if he is way out of the park then I will not even let him touch it. I hate letting other people touch my truck. You had your pitman arm replaced? I have never ever once in my life heard of a pitman arm needing to be replaced, even on an old truck let alone a new one.


Primary rig is Green Thunder:
95' F-150 XLT 4x4, 302, 5 spd, MSD 6A, Flowmaster Exhaust, Sunroof, Clear corners w/ Diamond headlights, CD player with 2 10" subs and some 32" BFG Muds .

Thats it for now, saving for a stang. Check out my Gallery for a look-see.


Justin - One Happy FTE Member

 

Hi!

More information on my truck. It has a 3.55 ratio limited slip axle. It has electronic shift with 2H, 4H, 4L. Skid Plates, off-road package, trailer towing package.

When I took the truck into Ford last July, the Check Engine light was on. The EEC test code was P1131. They "checked 02 sensor. Connector full of mud and dirt. Cleaned connector and retested. O2 sensors working fine."

At the same time, I had them check the rear end of the truck. When hauling my horse trailer (in any gear)over a small bump, I'd hear a lot of creaking type noise from rear of the truck. Without trailer attached, it didn't seem so noticeable. (Note: Rear shocks had just been replaced a month or two before this). I mentioned to them that I was having a hard time getting the truck to "move" in 4x4. It seemed like the rear wheels weren't moving and the front was pulling them along. I was hearing some "grinding" from the back end. Their diagnosis was "check 4x4. Turning corners, it grabs. Clutch pak in rear end noisy. Should be changed. Approx price of pack is 215.00 and labor is 138.00". I asked them if this was a normal problem for the age, quality, condition, and use of my truck. They said no, but they had a guy in just recently that needed the same thing.

Ford supposedly ordered the part that they would need to do the repair, but I still haven't heard from them. Do I just keep hopping from repair shop to repair shop in hopes of finding someone honest? Each place charges me for their time to "diagnose" the problem.

The "other" shop that I took my truck to about three weeks ago when the Check Engine light came on told me that my O2 sensors needed to be replaced. I called and mentioned it to my Ford dealer who diagnosed the check engine light in July, and they asked me "which two O2 sensors"? They said there are "four sensors and they are in two pairs".

Incidentally, the horror story of the "other shop" (which I used to trust) is this. I took my truck in for an oil change and tire rotation. I asked them to run the diagnostic for the check engine light and do a "pre-purchase inspection". (It's like a 20-point check up. I do that every so often just so they check brakes, shocks, etc.) So, I get my truck back and the oil is changed and the tires are rotated. I asked the guy what the diagnostic said. "Oh, it needs two new O2 sensors". Ok, well, did you find any problems with the pre-purchase inspection? "Nope, everything looks fine". Did you check the brakes and shocks and all? "Yep. Everything looks fine." After I walked out of the shop, I noticed they never charged me for the Check Engine Diagnostic and didn't charge me for the "pre-purchase inspection". Now I'm wondering if they even did it. I always have to check my truck before I leave the place just to make sure they put the oil cap back on.....(Yes, they have forgotten once before.) Oh, and two days after I got the truck home, I noticed that the coolant was below normal levels, and that's one thing they're supposed to do when they do an oil change--check all fluid levels and tire pressures. And to add to that, I tried to start the truck and, for the first time ever, it wouldn't start. It would try to catch and then die (the RPMs would go up, then just drop to 0), try to catch and then die. Kinda like it got a tiny bit of gas and then it was cut off. The only way I could keep it going was to put some pressure on the gas and get the RPMs over 500 for a couple minutes. I haven't had that same problem since that day.....

Any ideas? Do I pick a repair shop out of the phone book or do I try another Ford dealership? Do I write to Ford? Do I go with one of those little shops that are so cheap you wonder where they get their parts from?

I'm gonna get someone to drive that truck tomorrow in 4x4 where I can observe it. Maybe I can give you more information then.... I'll post my results.

 

This was left by "rkjerue" on another forum where I also posted. I have added his message here, and pointed the other forum to this one.


"The clutch pak in the rear axle is what engages your limited slip when one tire starts slipping and it can wear out. The stock Ford limited slip is not as robust and off-road savvy as some of the after market differentials out there. Auburn Gear makes a good replacement and there are others. But it will cost you more about $600 on up installed but I had one put on my truck and it was quit an improvement. If you really want good traction have one put on your front axle as well and your truck will really perform in slippery conditions.
http://www.auburngear.com/"

 

Ok! I drove the truck today and tested out the 4x4 again to refresh my memory. I haven't used the 4x4 since I had taken it in to Ford to be checked. Here is what I found:

Everything works fine in 2H--forward, reverse, cornering

In 4H and 4L, forward seems fine, maybe a little rough and sluggish, but 4x4 normally is.... Reverse and cornering are horrible. It feels like the wheels don't want to turn and I have to give it more gas to make the truck move (that's why I said it feels like the back wheels are "binding"). My "observer" said that the wheels were all moving and appeared to be normal when I was feeling this problem, so the problem isn't apparent to the outside observer, only to the driver of the truck. There were some strange clunks and grinds that were not normal when backing up and cornering. The observer heard the sounds, too.

If I had to describe how the 4x4 felt when trying to reverse or corner, I would use the analogy of the shopping cart at the grocery store, where the back wheels have a kid's shoestring wrapped around it. That ought to help you relate to how it feels going forward, backward, and cornering.....

I need to get the truck fixed before winter hits, so please review all this information and give me your final opinions. I don't know if I'll go back to the same Ford dealer, try a different one, or try to find another shop to take the truck to, but I'd like to have some ideas to throw at them before I do anything.

Anybody think I'd have any luck trying to get in touch with Bill Ford, Jr (or someone from Ford) to tell him about this situation?

Thanks!

 

A couple of things. If you told us what area you live in maybe someone on the board can recommend a trustworthy mechanic. I use to drive 25 miles(up to San Francisco) to a Toyota specialist to have my old Ranger serviced(since I bought a new F150 last year I haven't had a need to take my truck to him). What I like best is that he is very up front with me. He doesn't fix things that aren't broken and is honest about the seriousness of problems. If it can go for a while longer without causing additional damage he'll suggest that too.

Another thought would be to purchase a manual(Haynes or Chilton's- less than $20)and review the section concerning the problem before taking it in for service. You'll be less likely to get bad info from a service center if they think you know what they are talking about. Recently, after having the timing belt replaced on my wife's Toyota it had a proprietary code that my normal mechanic could not read and could not get from Toyota(and he does the service for one of the larger Toyota dealers around here but still could not get the code). The dealer claimed it was a cam shaft location sensor and it would cost $400 for them to take the head off the engine to look inside(before repairs could begin). Well it just so happened I had the manual handy and looked up the cam shaft sensor. Turns out the sensor was bolted to the engine casing from the outside of the engine and replacing it was done without opening the engine!!!! Needless to say we got the car out of the dealership as fast as possible and amazingly there was no more code and the car has run fine for the last 15,000 miles.

Be careful about high pressure sprayers. They can get water where it's not supposed to be and force dirt farther into places you're trying to get it out of. I'm all for washing underneath the truck- I do it 10-20 times a year depending on how much salt the road crews use during the snowy time of year. Just be careful where you point that thing.

If writing comes easy to you go for it. I say this because it may be an exercise in futility but on the other hand a well composed letter, one that is concise and avoids name calling, may very well make it to someone who cares enough to do something. However, unless the letter is on your lawyer's letterhead you may not get any response at all- That's why I suggest writing, at this point anyway, only if you can do it easily.

Good Luck

Tim
01 F150 5.4 4x4 Off Road 3.55LS

 

Just a suggestion but maybe you should get the manual and learn how to change oil, check brakes and fluids, minor repairs and maintance. Save you a bunch of money and you won't have to deal with repairmen. I hate mechanics, a lot of them don't know a whole lot and a lot of them try to trick you. I suggest you come here to FTE to diagnose any type of problem and than go to a mechanic and tell him what you think the problem is. Rather than asking him, because he'll think you don't know anything and try to say something it wrong when it's not. Also, if a mechanic says you need this this and this, come back here and ask us before you have him do the work. There are a lot of guys in the 97 truck forum that could help you and tell you if he's right or wrong. If it's 1/2 right, go back and tell him to do THAT and only THAT. Show him who's boss.


Primary rig is Green Thunder:
95' F-150 XLT 4x4, 302, 5 spd, MSD 6A, Flowmaster Exhaust, Sunroof, Clear corners w/ Diamond headlights, CD player with 2 10" subs and some 32" BFG Muds .

Thats it for now, saving for a stang. Check out my Gallery for a look-see.


Justin - One Happy FTE Member