Gas vs. Ethenol
Posting Legend
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 32,025
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From: Where Critters Are Free
please provide reference.
my real life experience shows 1-2 mpg loss with 10%, and the E85 is just worthless.
I will never run E85 again unless I have 0 other choices. I went from 550+ miles/tank to maybe 400 miles per tank the 3 times I used E85. And then it took about 2 tanks afterwards before my mileage went back up after flushing that crappy E85 out
my real life experience shows 1-2 mpg loss with 10%, and the E85 is just worthless.
I will never run E85 again unless I have 0 other choices. I went from 550+ miles/tank to maybe 400 miles per tank the 3 times I used E85. And then it took about 2 tanks afterwards before my mileage went back up after flushing that crappy E85 out
You are correct..I agree..
Senior User
Joined: Aug 2008
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I'm going to address some ethanol myths:
- E10 blended gas is not used at most places, not even close. Ethanol production makes up about 4% of fuel in gas engines. Factor in how much is used in E85 and you'll see that most gas does not come as an E10 blend.
- Ethanol in a Ford FFV engine giving more power --- well, maybe the butt-o-meter shows this... but a dyno doesn't. Timing can increase with E85 due to its higher octane but the flex fuel tables in Ford's don't come anywhere near advancing the timing enough so you end up breaking even. If you see a power increase its likely because other factors were causing the PCM to pull back timing when running gasoline.
- In order to extract more usable energy from lower BTU fuel (such as premium gas and ethanol) two things can occur: increase timing and increase compression. Increasing timing past a certain point does nothing for additional power unless compression is increased. This is why supercharged and turbo-charged applications can gain enormous power when properly tuned for ethanol. Ford's ecoboost is basically a turbo charged engine with direct injection.
- E85 has 24.7% less energy per gallon than gas. According to the Energy Information Administration of the US government it takes 1.33 gallons of ethanol to travel the same distance as as 1 gallon of gas, assuming the same thermal efficiency of the engine.
- E10 has 3.3% less energy per gallon than gas and you can expect a corresponding decrease in mileage so don't buy E10 fuel unless it costs about 3.3% less per gallon (about 11.5 cents currently). That bargain for E10 at Walmart isn't a bargain unless you save more than 3.3%!
- Car companies aren't producing flex fuel vehicles for us, the consumers. They are doing it because it costs them very little to make while giving them much needed CAFE credits.
- Ethanol is a huge tax scam and transfer of wealth to farmers and blenders. If the government truly wanted ethanol to be viable to reduce oil use they wouldn't slap a 54 cent per gallon tariff on imported ethanol. The corn lobby and blender's lobby are pushing ethanol because of government subsidies. Subsidy is a nice way of saying the government is taking your tax dollars and giving it to someone else. The E85 at the pump isn't costing you less... you're paying for it in taxes. Every gallon of it you put in your tank only goes to further support this bad policy. Remember... these numbers don't even include state tax subsidies! Next time you see a farmer on a forum pushing ethanol it isn't because ethanol (in its current status) is good of the nation, its because its good for his wallet.
- Ethanol is ethanol. The molecule doesn't change if its made from sugar beats, corn, sugar cane, etc.... its still the same molecule: C2H5OH
- Take a close at who funded University of Minnesota ethanol study - the ethanol lobby. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!
- Ethanol emissions, less? Not so! Ethanol increases ozone emissions greatly. Even a small increase in ground level ozone causes respiratory problems to skyrocket. Ethanol is supposed to reduce carbon emissions, but when you factor in the coversion of forest to crop land to displace land coverted to ethanol production, carbon emissions actually go up 93%. Guess who produced this data? David Tilman, an ecologist at the University of Minnesota, in his own study with scientists from other universities. NO2 emissions double from ethanol production due to fertilizer use. Ethanol results in increased emissions of aldehydes.
Follow the money trail folks... don't believe the hype pushed by those with an economic interest in pushing ethanol.
- E10 blended gas is not used at most places, not even close. Ethanol production makes up about 4% of fuel in gas engines. Factor in how much is used in E85 and you'll see that most gas does not come as an E10 blend.
- Ethanol in a Ford FFV engine giving more power --- well, maybe the butt-o-meter shows this... but a dyno doesn't. Timing can increase with E85 due to its higher octane but the flex fuel tables in Ford's don't come anywhere near advancing the timing enough so you end up breaking even. If you see a power increase its likely because other factors were causing the PCM to pull back timing when running gasoline.
- In order to extract more usable energy from lower BTU fuel (such as premium gas and ethanol) two things can occur: increase timing and increase compression. Increasing timing past a certain point does nothing for additional power unless compression is increased. This is why supercharged and turbo-charged applications can gain enormous power when properly tuned for ethanol. Ford's ecoboost is basically a turbo charged engine with direct injection.
- E85 has 24.7% less energy per gallon than gas. According to the Energy Information Administration of the US government it takes 1.33 gallons of ethanol to travel the same distance as as 1 gallon of gas, assuming the same thermal efficiency of the engine.
- E10 has 3.3% less energy per gallon than gas and you can expect a corresponding decrease in mileage so don't buy E10 fuel unless it costs about 3.3% less per gallon (about 11.5 cents currently). That bargain for E10 at Walmart isn't a bargain unless you save more than 3.3%!
- Car companies aren't producing flex fuel vehicles for us, the consumers. They are doing it because it costs them very little to make while giving them much needed CAFE credits.
- Ethanol is a huge tax scam and transfer of wealth to farmers and blenders. If the government truly wanted ethanol to be viable to reduce oil use they wouldn't slap a 54 cent per gallon tariff on imported ethanol. The corn lobby and blender's lobby are pushing ethanol because of government subsidies. Subsidy is a nice way of saying the government is taking your tax dollars and giving it to someone else. The E85 at the pump isn't costing you less... you're paying for it in taxes. Every gallon of it you put in your tank only goes to further support this bad policy. Remember... these numbers don't even include state tax subsidies! Next time you see a farmer on a forum pushing ethanol it isn't because ethanol (in its current status) is good of the nation, its because its good for his wallet.
- Ethanol is ethanol. The molecule doesn't change if its made from sugar beats, corn, sugar cane, etc.... its still the same molecule: C2H5OH
- Take a close at who funded University of Minnesota ethanol study - the ethanol lobby. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!
- Ethanol emissions, less? Not so! Ethanol increases ozone emissions greatly. Even a small increase in ground level ozone causes respiratory problems to skyrocket. Ethanol is supposed to reduce carbon emissions, but when you factor in the coversion of forest to crop land to displace land coverted to ethanol production, carbon emissions actually go up 93%. Guess who produced this data? David Tilman, an ecologist at the University of Minnesota, in his own study with scientists from other universities. NO2 emissions double from ethanol production due to fertilizer use. Ethanol results in increased emissions of aldehydes.
Follow the money trail folks... don't believe the hype pushed by those with an economic interest in pushing ethanol.
Your probably right, but the documentary I saw on Brazil's ethanol from sugar cane said that it had more energy per volume? I guess I should watch it again and more carefully. The Brazilian government sure is sold on the stuff though.
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Junior User
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 60
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From: Coldwater Mi.
Ken, excellent read , I'm from Michigan one of the other states known for growing corn . I pretty much knew most of what you posted already. I think we have a dozen new ethenol plants with 3 or 4 more in the works , this is just in the past couple of years , the farmers here love it , but when those John Deeres have to #2 fuel and fertilizer went from 2oo to 1000 dollars a ton , they were probably making as much when corn was at 2.50 . bad thing is a cheeseburger will soon go for 10.
Elder User
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 958
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas, NV
I liked Ken's last post. It made a lot of sense to me.
I have the 06, 5.4 flex fuel engine. When gas got to 4.55 here in Las Vegas, I figured, it was time for a try of E-85.
I ran four tanks of it. Really I did not notice much power difference in the city. But I had a tank full, and pulled my travel trailer out of Las Vegas 35 miles, up to a campground at 9000 ft. I pulled 10 percent grades. I had done that pull last year with regular gas. It was a hard pull but no problem. This year with the E-85 I was wondering sometimes, if we were going to make it. We went down to 8 mph in first gear, and the gas pedal was mushy. I am telling you it scared the poopies out of me. Now I am back to regular gas. It will be next year before I do that pull again. But I just know from practical experience, E85 loses much power. Way too much for me!
I have the 06, 5.4 flex fuel engine. When gas got to 4.55 here in Las Vegas, I figured, it was time for a try of E-85.
I ran four tanks of it. Really I did not notice much power difference in the city. But I had a tank full, and pulled my travel trailer out of Las Vegas 35 miles, up to a campground at 9000 ft. I pulled 10 percent grades. I had done that pull last year with regular gas. It was a hard pull but no problem. This year with the E-85 I was wondering sometimes, if we were going to make it. We went down to 8 mph in first gear, and the gas pedal was mushy. I am telling you it scared the poopies out of me. Now I am back to regular gas. It will be next year before I do that pull again. But I just know from practical experience, E85 loses much power. Way too much for me!
Senior User
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 114
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I am wondering if there is someone out there that can make a custom tune for the E85 fuel to make good power in a normal aspirated engine? Maybe why most loose a lot of power is because the stock tune doesn't compensate? Just a thought
Freshman User
Joined: Aug 2008
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I will also be doing an intake, but for this test I will leave EVERYTHING STOCK down to the air filter so that the results cannot be skewed.
Senior User
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 114
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I carry my tuner for my mustang at all times. I always switch tunes when I'm driving around town, or going from 87 to 100 octane or the drag strip.
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MMNC (SS)(Ret)
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 11,604
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From: SE Georgia
it says so right in the owners manual...the part where it recommends you don't run e85 and switch to 87...and back and forth.
The PCM must determine which "gas" is being used and the fuel map changes accordingly. so, unless you use E85 exclusively, a e85 tune will be useless. what will happen when you run 87? or when the concentration is 1/2 and 1/2
The PCM must determine which "gas" is being used and the fuel map changes accordingly. so, unless you use E85 exclusively, a e85 tune will be useless. what will happen when you run 87? or when the concentration is 1/2 and 1/2
Posting Guru
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,365
Likes: 0
From: IOWA
I'm going to address some ethanol myths:
- Ethanol is a huge tax scam and transfer of wealth to farmers and blenders. If the government truly wanted ethanol to be viable to reduce oil use they wouldn't slap a 54 cent per gallon tariff on imported ethanol. The corn lobby and blender's lobby are pushing ethanol because of government subsidies. Subsidy is a nice way of saying the government is taking your tax dollars and giving it to someone else. The E85 at the pump isn't costing you less... you're paying for it in taxes. Every gallon of it you put in your tank only goes to further support this bad policy. Remember... these numbers don't even include state tax subsidies! Next time you see a farmer on a forum pushing ethanol it isn't because ethanol (in its current status) is good of the nation, its because its good for his wallet.
- Ethanol is ethanol. The molecule doesn't change if its made from sugar beats, corn, sugar cane, etc.... its still the same molecule: C2H5OH
- Take a close at who funded University of Minnesota ethanol study - the ethanol lobby. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!
- Ethanol emissions, less? Not so! Ethanol increases ozone emissions greatly. Even a small increase in ground level ozone causes respiratory problems to skyrocket. Ethanol is supposed to reduce carbon emissions, but when you factor in the coversion of forest to crop land to displace land coverted to ethanol production, carbon emissions actually go up 93%. Guess who produced this data? David Tilman, an ecologist at the University of Minnesota, in his own study with scientists from other universities. NO2 emissions double from ethanol production due to fertilizer use. Ethanol results in increased emissions of aldehydes.
Follow the money trail folks... don't believe the hype pushed by those with an economic interest in pushing ethanol.
- Ethanol is a huge tax scam and transfer of wealth to farmers and blenders. If the government truly wanted ethanol to be viable to reduce oil use they wouldn't slap a 54 cent per gallon tariff on imported ethanol. The corn lobby and blender's lobby are pushing ethanol because of government subsidies. Subsidy is a nice way of saying the government is taking your tax dollars and giving it to someone else. The E85 at the pump isn't costing you less... you're paying for it in taxes. Every gallon of it you put in your tank only goes to further support this bad policy. Remember... these numbers don't even include state tax subsidies! Next time you see a farmer on a forum pushing ethanol it isn't because ethanol (in its current status) is good of the nation, its because its good for his wallet.
- Ethanol is ethanol. The molecule doesn't change if its made from sugar beats, corn, sugar cane, etc.... its still the same molecule: C2H5OH
- Take a close at who funded University of Minnesota ethanol study - the ethanol lobby. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!
- Ethanol emissions, less? Not so! Ethanol increases ozone emissions greatly. Even a small increase in ground level ozone causes respiratory problems to skyrocket. Ethanol is supposed to reduce carbon emissions, but when you factor in the coversion of forest to crop land to displace land coverted to ethanol production, carbon emissions actually go up 93%. Guess who produced this data? David Tilman, an ecologist at the University of Minnesota, in his own study with scientists from other universities. NO2 emissions double from ethanol production due to fertilizer use. Ethanol results in increased emissions of aldehydes.
Follow the money trail folks... don't believe the hype pushed by those with an economic interest in pushing ethanol.
If it's a transfer of wealth to the farmers, I'm sure missing out!
As was previously mentioned, the cost of corn has gone up, but so has the cost of production of the corn. Well, as of recently, the corn prices have been going down, but believe it or not the cost of fertilizer, fuel and equipment to produce the corn continues to rise, making margins awfully tight.
I have yet to find a farmer who agrees with the government and the subsidies they give out. The government has had their hands in the commodity markets for so long it's hard to even call it a free market, which it should be. The Farm Bill started out as the Food Security Act, to ensure that there will be enough food provided to feed the country. But the government continued to change and adjust things resulting in something that isn't even close to what it used to be.
- Ethanol emissions, less? Not so! Ethanol increases ozone emissions greatly. Even a small increase in ground level ozone causes respiratory problems to skyrocket. Ethanol is supposed to reduce carbon emissions, but when you factor in the coversion of forest to crop land to displace land coverted to ethanol production, carbon emissions actually go up 93%. Guess who produced this data? David Tilman, an ecologist at the University of Minnesota, in his own study with scientists from other universities. NO2 emissions double from ethanol production due to fertilizer use. Ethanol results in increased emissions of aldehydes.
Follow the money trail folks... don't believe the hype pushed by those with an economic interest in pushing ethanol.
Follow the money trail folks... don't believe the hype pushed by those with an economic interest in pushing ethanol.
Freshman User
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
it says so right in the owners manual...the part where it recommends you don't run e85 and switch to 87...and back and forth.
The PCM must determine which "gas" is being used and the fuel map changes accordingly. so, unless you use E85 exclusively, a e85 tune will be useless. what will happen when you run 87? or when the concentration is 1/2 and 1/2
The PCM must determine which "gas" is being used and the fuel map changes accordingly. so, unless you use E85 exclusively, a e85 tune will be useless. what will happen when you run 87? or when the concentration is 1/2 and 1/2
Have you ever tuned a vehicle before? I've tuned my 05 Mustang using SCT Advantage 3 software so I do have real world experience with this stuff, not just tuning with Gasoline, but also tuning with E85. Like I said, I haven't seen the tune for a flex fuel Ford yet, but if it works the way I believe it does there should not be any issues, just a few extra tables to work with.
Freshman User
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Changing tunes every time I switch from E85 to gasoline in my Mustang is exactly what I do now. It is a minor inconvenience. I have high hopes that I won't have to do this in the F150 for the very fact that it is already a FFV and I should be able to take advantage of the capabilities of the fuel system and ECU to see the change in fuel so that no tune changes will be needed and an 87 performance and E85 performance tune will be achievable with a single tune.
MMNC (SS)(Ret)
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 11,604
Likes: 149
From: SE Georgia
@ Yellow
if you can tune the tables so that only the E85 tables are affected, then yes, I could see getting custom tunes done.
Nobody has really done any sort of e85 tuning with these trucks and posted the results. I think you are treading semi-unexplored area here. best of luck with it
if you can tune the tables so that only the E85 tables are affected, then yes, I could see getting custom tunes done.
Nobody has really done any sort of e85 tuning with these trucks and posted the results. I think you are treading semi-unexplored area here. best of luck with it
Posting Guru
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,365
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From: IOWA
Any reason what you guys are doing can't be reproduced as a "chip" to get 'non-FFV' capable to run various blends of ethanol?
I sometimes think the guys on here are smarter than the engineers that design these vehicles. Kudos to you guys!
I sometimes think the guys on here are smarter than the engineers that design these vehicles. Kudos to you guys!
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