Starter selenoid/ Ignition switch?
I posted this in the '80-'86 section, but am looking for help anywhere I can get it.
During the last year and a half I've burned out 4 selenoids and one starter.
Yesterday I burned out 2 selenoids. The starter motor keeps turning either after the truck has started and or after the ign switch is off. The ign switch does turn off because the other circuts (ie. lights, rado etc. stop. I've done a search on this section of the Message Board and have noticed that this seems to happen to more than me. One problem can be the selenoid, but after burning the first one out yesterday, I replaced it with a new "extra heavy duty" $18.00 unit rather than the regular heavy duty $11.00 unit. That one stayed engaged after just the 3rd starting of the truck.
Another problem mentioned is the ignition switch actuating arm. This can either get broken or, as the Ford service man mentioned, get dirt in it and stick. So... I took the little red wire (starter switch wire) off the selenoid and put a continuity test light onto it. I cycled the switch for at least 20 cycles and every time current went on and off successfully when I turned the switch on and off. It is possible that whatever dirt was in this actuator rod or arm has been dislodged while driving and it will now be ok for a while. (I diconnected the starter motor cable and push started the truck to do my work.)
The Ford Garage and another garageman mentioned that a worn flywheel ring gear could pull the starter gear into it and stay locked together after the truck started. But I don't see any type of feedback wire coming from the starter back to the ignition system telling the engine to stay running as long as the starter motor is turning. Plus, I can seem to shut off the motor of the truck, but if I try to stall the starter motor with the clutch and brake, it doesn't work. That's I think how I burned out the first starter motor and melted some wires... I think the Ford garage is explaining what can happen if the starter gear and the engine stay physically engaged, like when the starter bendix spring breaks.
My quesitons are a couple....
(1) Those of you who have had this problem, was it successfully remedied by cleaning or repairing this actuator arm? .... or a new selenoid...? or...a new switch?.. or did it need a new truck
(2) Is there any such possibility that the starter motor is drawing way to much current and somehow immediately (or almost immediately) "welding" the contacts together in the selenoid?.. The truck seems to start relatively easily and the starter motor turns for a half a minute easily. (it took at least that long to get it disconnected) Could a starter wire rubbed through and grounding on the frame or header's cause this? Or would that not allow current to go to the starter?
(3) One other question about the '87's. The wiring diagram for the '84-'86 truck shows only the starter cable wire coming off the starter selenoid. The '87-'89 diagram shows the clutch interlock switch also coming off the starter cable side of the selenoid. It looks like the interlock switch grounds out the starter motor if the clutch isn't deployed. My truck must be in the '86 category because when I was testing continuity on the starter switch wire, the continuity light went off when I pushed in the clutch. However, I've been driving with a second wire (a group of 2 wires) attatched to the starter side pole of the selenoid. ???? Did someone (Me?) make a mistake sometime that they changed the starter selenoid? Should there be any smaller wires coming from the starter motor side of the selenoid? I've heard that '87 was a in between year and so I wonder if there is a reason for the wires to be on the starter cable side of the selenoid or if they should be on the battery side. I don't think this is causing the starter motor to stay engaged as I've driven the truck for at least a year like this. But it might cause other minor ills that I'm not aware of.
(4) The haynes manual doesn't go into alot of detail about removing the collars on the steering colum or especially any detail about removing or servicing this 'actuator arm' Would anyone happen to have some pictures or some encouragement if this appears to be the solution? Do I need a steering wheel puller?
My truck is the carb version of the '87 (pre injection)
Any help appreciated.
Tony G
Now, Have you tried starting the engine with a remote start switch as opposed to the turning of the key , to start?
With the key in *run* position and then use a remote start switch at the starter solenoid,see if the starter continues.
After the engine is running *check for power still going to the S terminal of the solenoid*.
And make sure both ends of your both battery cables are CLEAN & SECURE.
Dennis https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=1733&.jpg
[i][font color=red]Calgary,Alberta,Canada[/font][i]
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78 F-150 429CJ,Silver, Explorer Pkg.
641/2-Mustang 260,Pre-World's Fair Car.
64-Fairlane500 S/C waiting for a 390-4spd.
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>spelling).
Yep, Dennis you're right. I picked up the sOlenoid box to prove you wrong and it bit me..
>
>Now, Have you tried starting the engine with a remote start
>switch as opposed to the turning of the key , to start?
No, I haven't. I did some more continuity tests today with another solenoid and put the auxillary wire back on the battery side. After verifying that the solenoid would deactivate with the starter motor disconnnected, we connected the starter motor cable and gave it a go. The ignition assembly does seem slow to return to 'run' position, but the starter switch wire loses continuity almost immediately. The power stays "off" to the 's' terminal after the truck started. It's too ealy to tell if I've solved the problem, but I think I'll take the steering column apart when I get the chance and do some investigating and lubricating.
>With the key in *run* position and then use a remote start
>switch at the starter solenoid,see if the starter continues.
>After the engine is running *check for power still going to
>the S terminal of the solenoid*.
>
>And make sure both ends of your both battery cables are
>CLEAN & SECURE.
Thats always a good policy. Is there something in particular about loose connections that would fry solenoids or cause them to 'bite fast'.??
Thanks a "million" Dennis
Tony
You should remember something about Continuity as opposed to conduction.
If there was no power in the wire that goes to the S terminal of the solenoid that usually rules out ignition switch unless of course,it's an intermittant problem.You should know though when the starter drive is turning when the engine is running.
Solenoids can become very hot with increased use trying to start a
tempermental engine.
Dennis https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=1733&.jpg
[i][font color=red]Calgary,Alberta,Canada[/font][i]
[font color=blue]Please Don't Ask Me Any Tough Questions,
"I'm Saving My Memory For When I Develop Alzheimer's" [font/]
78 F-150 429CJ,Silver, Explorer Pkg.
641/2-Mustang 260,Pre-World's Fair Car.
64-Fairlane500 S/C waiting for a 390-4spd.
68-Mustang 289-Sunlit Gold 80,892Mi
78-Buick LeSabre 403 4V
84 Volvo DL Wagon
>quality of the parts being used.
Well, I went with a supposedly Heavy Duty solenoid from KEM. And the one that is in there now is also a KEM but a 'verticle' version rather than horizontal. I've never heard of this 'KEM" company though. I'm was shocked at the $17 price and was used to getting $7 'generic' soleniods that sometimes worked longer than the "heavy duty" ones. I had even put a "FORD" item in about 9 months ago that locked up within two days. Quality of parts doesn't "seem" to be the problem.
>
>You should remember something about Continuity as opposed to
>conduction.
>
>If there was no power in the wire that goes to the S
>terminal of the solenoid that usually rules out ignition
>switch unless of course,it's an intermittant problem.
I really think this might be an intermittant sticking of the ignition start switch or that 'actuator rod'. This is why I'll hope to take the covers off the column shortly and have a looksee.
You
>should know though when the starter drive is turning when
>the engine is running.
(should there be an "and" in this sentence?)
>
>Solenoids can become very hot with increased use trying to
>start a
>tempermental engine.
Well, one thing that I have never been able to complain about is the truck starting hard. In the winter, I may have to set the choke twice, but I have always had to barely touch the starter and it fires right up when warm. This also is not the problem.
I did some searching on the '80-'86 truck board and turned up a few who had problems with their start switch actuating rod. But I'm not sure this is the problem either until I get in there.
Tony
>quality of the parts being used.
>
There did seem to be a fair amount of "green mold" covering the copper connecters. I took some sandpaper over them and will get some dielectric grease worked in too. I'll do a better job in the daylight and give them a good cleaning. They were due for it weather that is a problem or not. I should also run some 2 gauge wire for the start circuit rather than what's in there now, but power to the starter never seems to be a problem.
Tony
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No a comma was missed before the word when
*,When the engine is running*
I was going to mention a good clean & tight connection on the grounding bracket of the solenoid.
What size cable do you have running to the starter?
It should almost be, 1 or 2 gauge.
Dennis https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=1733&.jpg
[i][font color=red]Calgary,Alberta,Canada[/font][i]
[font color=blue]Please Don't Ask Me Any Tough Questions,
"I'm Saving My Memory For When I Develop Alzheimer's" [font/]
78 F-150 429CJ,Silver, Explorer Pkg.
641/2-Mustang 260,Pre-World's Fair Car.
64-Fairlane500 S/C waiting for a 390-4spd.
68-Mustang 289-Sunlit Gold 80,892Mi
78-Buick LeSabre 403 4V
84 Volvo DL Wagon
Ford Trucks for Ford Truck Enthusiasts
>the grounding bracket of the solenoid.
Well, there is no significant rust on the sidewall of the fender and I use some dielectric grease on the terminals. I had them the attatching screws fairly tight. I think there is a ground wire from the wiring harness to the inner fender wall and I could check that for corrosion.
>What size cable do you have running to the starter?
6
I know it should be larger and have been looking at 4 at the local auto parts store and 2 at auto zone or making my own up out of 2 gauge.
>It should almost be, 1 or 2 gauge.
How would insufficient current to the starter 'lock up' the solenoid? That conductivity and continuity issue again?
Today with the new solenoid, I must have started the truck 15 times or so. "farm type work". One time it stayed connected, so the problem isn't totally fixed yet. I also took the steering column cover off and lubricated the nylon slides for the starting switch activating rod. The time it stayed connected was even after lubricating the starting switch activating rod and after switching the one smaller wire back over to the battery side where it should have been. I think that might have been either part of a factory towing package or part of the choke circuit.
when it stayed running, I didn't have my continuity tester handy to test if there was current at the starter switch pole. I was focused on stopping the starter motor by removing the neg ground.
I'll get underneath the truck tomorrow and check the starter cable wire and see how things look at that end. I'll also get some 2 gauge cables either made or bought and check if there is a ground to the inner fender wall and the ground to the engine block from the battery, etc.
I can't see what the actuator rod 'activates' on the steering column. Apparently there is another switch near the base of the steering column. This I suppose could have a poor ground or be wearing out?
>
>
Small cable allows for greater heat and more resistance through the wire.That's why you need the proper cable.
I suggest a Factory cable rather than a made up one.
The cable ends are notorious for corroding quickly.
Using a weak battery trying to start the engine will also LOCK-UP a starter solenoid.
Think about bad grounding/low power.
The high resistance involved usually goes to the *WEAKEST LINK*
Good bye!
*grin*
Dennis https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=1733&.jpg
[i][font color=red]Calgary,Alberta,Canada[/font][i]
[font color=blue]Please Don't Ask Me Any Tough Questions,
"I'm Saving My Memory For When I Develop Alzheimer's" [font/]
78 F-150 429CJ,Silver, Explorer Pkg.
641/2-Mustang 260,Pre-World's Fair Car.
64-Fairlane500 S/C waiting for a 390-4spd.
68-Mustang 289-Sunlit Gold 80,892Mi
78-Buick LeSabre 403 4V
84 Volvo DL Wagon
Only one problem, It's not an automatic.... so does it activate the clutch switch?..
>
>Small cable allows for greater heat and more resistance
>through the wire.That's why you need the proper cable.
>
>I suggest a Factory cable rather than a made up one.
>The cable ends are notorious for corroding quickly.
>
>Using a weak battery trying to start the engine will also
>LOCK-UP a starter solenoid.
The battery is VERY GOOD condition and not a cheap one either. It's less than 6 months old and the volt meter stays at or above 14 volts. I'd rather check into poor grounds and the battery cables. The starter motor usually turns the motor over easily, but the cables sitll might be a problem.
>
>Think about bad grounding/low power.
Well at least we're thinking somewhat alike.
>
>The high resistance involved usually goes to the *WEAKEST
>LINK*
>Good bye!
>
>*grin*
>
No, No, you can't leave me...
All for tonight...
I'm still here.
That was just from the TV show,thus the grin.
Dennis https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=1733&.jpg
[i][font color=red]Calgary,Alberta,Canada[/font][i]
[font color=blue]Please Don't Ask Me Any Tough Questions,
"I'm Saving My Memory For When I Develop Alzheimer's" [font/]
78 F-150 429CJ,Silver, Explorer Pkg.
641/2-Mustang 260,Pre-World's Fair Car.
64-Fairlane500 S/C waiting for a 390-4spd.
68-Mustang 289-Sunlit Gold 80,892Mi
78-Buick LeSabre 403 4V
84 Volvo DL Wagon




