I'll think I've found one on ebay, guy says its still in good shape, so we will see. Thanks for all the help guys!

I am assuming that once I get this, there is a special tool for putting it on. Looking around I can find a couple of them, but are there any recommended for the Y block?

 

Proper socket size, torque wrench, correct bolt and thick washer. Coat the motor end of the damper with a little grease to help it pass through seal. I forget the torque spec but it is high, like 100 ft. lbs. Before installing look closely at the two threaded holes and make sure they are not stripped. You need those two holes with good threads to remove the balancer.

 

54 cars generally have Dearborns and trucks usually have Clevelands. It is best to check.

There are two versions of 239 & 256: Dearborn and Cleveland. Cleveland parts interchange with all other Y Blocks. Dearborn motors have a different block, heads, head gasket, cam, and distributor gear.

You can tell the difference like this: On the front of the block on the passenger side, between the generator and the timing cover, you should see a "C" with an "F" inside cast onto the wall of the block if you have a Cleveland. A Dearborn block is cast with a "DIF" in line, but I don't know where you should look for that mark.

Another way to tell for sure is to pull the distributor. If the gear has 13 teeth, it is a Dearborn. If it has 14 teeth, it is a Cleveland.

Distributors and oil pumps: the early motors use a tang and slot drive from the distributor to the oil pump. Later motors have a hex drive. You can't mix and match: Your distributor, oil pump, and oil pump driveshaft has to be all hex drive or tang and slot.

If you have a Dearborn motor, you can use a later (and better) distributor for 57 and up by using your Dearborn gear on the later distributor shaft. But you still need to use a hex drive shaft and oil pump to make this work.

239s have a smaller water pump than the later engines. The timing cover is different to match this smaller water pump. So, water pumps come in two sizes, small and large, for two applications, car and truck, making for 4 kinds of water pump. Truck pumps have a bracket on them for the fan. LAter small trucks do not have this bracket -- the fan was mounted the same as cars, on the water pump shaft.

You may decide that the hassle of trying to find a rebuilt 239 water pump is not worth it. They are much harder to find that the large later ones. you will need the newer timing cover to match. Remember you cannot use the car timing cover because it doesn't have the same lower bolt bosses that accept the truck's front motor mount. And, if you switch timing covers, you will also need a different fuel pump.

239s use a different fuel pump. It mounts upside down in comparison to later pumps. The 239 pumps have a straight arm, but the later ones have a bend in the arm.

The ports are very small on the 239 heads, but you should be able to use the 55 and 56 heads -- they are not that much larger. The heads used from 57 and up have much larger ports. I did successfully use a 57 4v manifold on my 239, but I would not try it again. When I took the manifold off and saw how much gasket area was compressed -- about 1/16" in many areas -- I saw that I was lucky. Ford moved the whole casting pad further into the center of the head to make room for the larger 57 and up ports.

The 239 did not use a damper as has been mentioned. When Ford increased the stroke from 3.1" to 3.3", they went to a vibration damper. As has been mentioned, the rubber between the ring and hub of the damper has a tendency to slip, putting the timing marks out of whack. My current 272 (same stroke as 292) has the 239 damper (along with the small water pump from the 239). I've put many miles on it with no trouble. However, it is not safe to assume that Ford put dampers on the larger motors for no reason at all. I suspect that if the larger motor is run at high rpm with heavy loads over long periods, it would be reasonable to expect a few cracked cranks. This kind of situation would probably be found mostly in fleet truck operations, but if you are pulling a heavy trailer or hauling loads of rocks up hills on the hiway, you may see it, too. If you are just putting about town or driving over to the next city, then worry about something else until you get a chance to find a damper.

My last 239 configuration was using the 57 ECZ 9425 B 4v manifold, a worked over 312 57 312 4v Holley (390 cfm) and a worked over 1960 Ford truck distributor. This combination worked quite well and gave better performance and gas mileage than the original setup, besides running much better.

For your manifold choices, if you wanted to run a newer distributor (Load O Matic performance is generally dismal. The old diaphragm is never going to work right and the whole design is inferior to the conventional distributor, tho they can be made to run) and wanted to do a swap, I would say that the most trouble-free setup would be to use an adapter on your current manifold and run a Ford/Autolite 2100 2v carb. These are very simple units and work very well. A good second choice would be a Holley 2300 2v, again using a small one with an adapter. If you don't want to spend the money on an adapter, use the larger ECG Holley/Ford carb that came on later trucks and cars. It has the same 3 bolt design and doesn't need an adapter, but it has modern booster venturis rather than the old style "hat" used in the EBV/EBU units. Make sure to plug the distributor feed if you use this carb -- that is NOT a manifold vacuum source. If you use the Load O Matic distributor you MUST connect it to this port on the proper stock carb -- you cannot hook up a Load O Matic to manifold vacuum.

If you want to run a 4v carb, look for a Ford ECZ 9425 A manifold from a 55 or 56 Ford. These used the Holley Teapot carb and are fairly easy to come by. You can immediately recognize them by their small runners and small carb base pattern. (There's a pic of one on my web site, link below.) You will need an adapter. Run a small Holley or AFB/Edelbrock -- both are good carbs and will work well for you.

Get a set of headers or block off the right hand manifold crossover port and have a tube bent for the left side, making sure your muffler shop leaves plenty of clearance for the fuel pump.

There is no problem getting pistons for the 239. I believe Badger and Silvolite make them, Sterling probably has them also. If you get in a pinch, you can always find whatever you need at Egge Machine. EGGE, Inc.

 

Wild Bunch, it is great to have your experience and insight back on board!

Regarding the 239 pulley setup on a 292: yeah sure it could work if a person was just wanting to see if they can get a motor to start. Heck you could probably get it to fire up without any pulley/damper come to think of it.

However if it was to remain in place on a running motor and vehicle IMHO the compromise is way too much. Even if the crank doesnt break bearing wear would suffer. If "rebuilding" a 292 with 239 pulley, then the shortcuts could really start, like putting in some good used main and rod bearings.

 

I'm working thru some V8 balance issues that are also related to vibration dampening.

One of the problems with the common Detroit implementation of the V8 has to do with the counterbalancing of the front half and the rear half of the crank, which, if you think about it, is similar to a 180* two cylinder crank.

Most V8 cranks were, at first, forgings. These were forged in a single plane and then twisted at mains 2 & 4 to get the two plane configuration that is used with most modern V8s (but not all). In this process, it was difficult to put counterweights next to the center main, so the counterweighting was put all in front of #1 main and behind #5 main. After a bit, both manufacturing issues and compactness (notably in the Y Block's successor, the 221-289-302 family) caused some designers to move some of this balance weight onto the hub and flywheel/flexplate, which allowed smaller end counterweights.

All of this business with weights on the end is going to increase the torsional activity of the crank as cylinders fire along its length, for the ends with the weights will have inertia that resists the acceleration of the firing impulse.

The crank, like a tuning fork, will vibrate more at certain frequencies than at others, and this will depend on the structure of the crank. 239s and 256s, with the 3.1 inch stroke, will have more main/rod journal overlap than the 3.3 stroke engines, be stiffer and thus flex less, and that is most likely why Ford didn't put dampeners on them. Consider: If Ford would spend the money to put a counterweight on the cam gear to balance the fuel pump eccentric (have you ever seen that on another motor?), why would they omit a dampener if it was necessary.

Another factor here is that, with Ford's cast crank technology, it was easy for them to put center counterweights on the crank, thus decreasing the amount of weight needed at the ends and the torsional properties of the crank.

The natural harmonic of the crank is going to be affected by more than just the crank pin overlap and the way it is counterbalanced. In operation, the whole drivetrain will be included as an affecting property. As each piston fires and applies torque to the crank, consider that the amount that the crank twists is going to be affected by the weight of the flywheel, whether the transmission is an automatic or manual, and even the weight of the wheels and tires at the far end of the drivetrain.

The amount of load will also play a part in these considerations.

I hope we can all agree that the dampener's purpose is to cancel out some of this twisting of the crank. It should also be plain that the dampening effect of the ring mounted on rubber is going to have certain counter-torsional properties, i.e., it will vibrate according to a certain period also. So its purpose is not to dampen out all torsional action, but only at specific rpms.

Somewhere I read about this concerning Y Blocks, and the figures of 4400 rpm and 4800 rpm stick in my mind, but I don't want to be quoted on this as I'd like to review it before stating anything concrete about it.

But as a comparison, consider the old scrub, the SBC, which has a thinner crank than the Y Block. When they went to the 3 1/4" stroke for the 327, those who ran these things in the drags (high rpm, high load) and left off the dampener and used only a hub so the motors would rev faster began to get crank breakage.

I've been poking around at this for a few months little by little, since I'm in an on-going debate with someone somewhere else over V8 balance, which I'm asserting can never be perfect in V8s with a 2 plane crank. I just haven't had time to work thru the issues, so I can't give any definitive answer on this matter here.

I can say, however, that the current 272 I'm running has about 30K to 40K miles on it and it has the 239 hub. I bought it used from a guy who had it in an F350 stakebed and he had driven the thing back and forth to someplace like Arkansas a bunch of times (from Colorado). I haven't the slightest idea how many miles the motor has.

Yes, I've got a dampener that I got out of the wrecking yard, and the ring has slipped, and I fully intend to have it rebuilt and to use it someday. But it isn't as high on my list of priorities as a few other things, like getting my hi lift rockers rebuilt, for instance.

Still, in the end, everyone has to be satisfied to live with their own choices.

 

Nice description of the issue(s)!

 

Very informative, thank you very much.

 

Apparently I can't send PMs, 46yblock, could you get in touch with me somehow if you still have that damper core available. Seems my great ebay deal never showed up.

 

Crazy,

I cant send you PMs or email either via FTE. Maybe it has to do with settings in your profile. You can email me directly at yblock 46 @ peoplepc.com . No spaces. I think FTE edits or deletes email addresses in posts.

Mike

 

So thanks to 46yblock, I've got a shiny new damper all ready to go. The last thing I need is the bolt to attach it to the crank. The only part number I can find is out of the James Eickmann Ford Y block book, and it is 6A340. But I can't find this bolt anywhere. Does anybody know of a source for them, or at least the size so I can just make a run to home depot and get something that will fit?

Edit: I should add, the searchng I've done has found that the 4.6L mustang crowd's crankshaft bolt also has 6A340 as part of the part number. I doubt these are interchangeable, as the mustang's is a 12mm bolt, and that would be very strange based on every other bolt on this engine and truck.

 

I am almost positive I have an extra bolt, washer too. Do you need the washer?

 

Yep, need both.

 

Hey fella's, I've been following your discussion. I also, have a 239, however, I have the 4v intake to put on but I'm having trouble finding an intake gasket for it...any idea's

 

This is a phenolic spacer for your manifold and carb: eBay Motors: 55 56 57 Ford 292 312 Holley Teapot Phenolic Spacer 54 (item 330260517557 end time Aug-15-08 18:15:39 PDT)
I thought the full gasket sets came with carb gaskets, but after checking they dont. Maybe you could make one or two. They likely wouldnt look pretty but should work.

 

Ill need one of those as well, funny I had no trouble finding one for my flathead...