OK, you guys are going to have to help me out here. I had thought I had seen just about everything, but this is a new one for me. Many, many moons ago, I replaced the worn out 352 in my '67 F-250 Wood Hauler Special with a 90K-mile 351W that I plundered from my totaled T-bird. It ran great, as always in the truck. Shortly afterwards, she got parked for about 5 years in the barn and I tried to get her moving tonight. Uh oh. It wouldn't even cough on starting fluid. It sounded funny cranking over, so I pulled a plug and checked the compression. Nearly nothing. On ALL cylinders. I thought maybe all the lifters had collapsed, so I pulled the valve covers and distributor and primed the oil pump. Nope. I've got oil all the way up to the top and the valve train is working the way it ought to - They're all opening/closing and nothing is stuck. Still no compression. I tried putting oil in the cylinders. It came up a little, but not much. With the oil, we're talking about 10-30 PSI. I've relit engines that had been dark for 15-20 years and never had one completely lose compression in all cylinders like this! I know that it was within specs when I put the engine in. That wasn't even 5,000 miles ago. The ignition system is fine and it is getting fuel. This has to be it. The only thing that I can think of is that the chain has slipped (doubtful, I drove it in the barn) or the valves are so rusty that they aren't seating. I find that hard to swallow, too. Any ideas? I'm stumped.

 

I can offer sympathy, but it sounds like you thought of everything I have. Deepest sympathy, in fact. Get an AutoZone engine to replace it (I know you love 'em).

Cadet Second Lieutenant John F. Daly III
South Carolina Corps of Cadets, The Citadel
The TorqueKing

 

Rage

I bet you didn't stud the block and put Windsor JR heads on it did you? Just what is it going to take to convince you? :-)

I am going to basically repeat back what you said. Put #1 on TDC and look at the rotor to verify chain didn't hop. If it's cool, I think you have stuck rings. I can't imagine all the valves rusted evenly since some are shut of course during storage. I would filler up with penetrating oil for a while and chase it with oil. I think you can get it running but I bet it smokes like a dog when you do. Hope not.

Torque King

You be sure and post right here after you toss a rod out the side of that DEEluxe shortblock from Wal-Mart, I mean Autozone.

Later
Fenders

 

I know, I know. What the hell was I thinking?!? I probably blew both head gaskets cranking it over. 8.5:1 with 69cc chambers is WAAAYYYY more than those plain 'ole bolts can handle. Seriously, I just came from the shop and did just what you suggested. The chain is a little loose, but it's where it ought to be. I even went so far as to pull the left rocker cover back off and watch the valve action as I rotated the engine. The intake rolls shut just as it hits 0 degrees TDC. I did bump the distributor back a tooth so I'd have a little more timing adjustment before the advance can hit the t-stat housing, but that didn't make any difference either. I'm thinking the rings are stuck, too. I horked a gallon of Kroil from work today and I'll dump some in the jugs tomorrow morning and let it sit for the weekend. The only odd thing about it that I've noticed is that it wants to spit fuel out of the carb when it's cranking. But I guess if it does have an intake valve hanging up a little bit that could happen. NEVER should have let it sit so long!!! Oh, well. Might try pulling it, too. Thank God for 4 speeds! Wish me luck. If I can't get it running, I guess I'm off to Autozone. HA! I'd tow it out to the woodpile and back with the Harley first.

 

Rage

Intake just closing at TDC compression stroke sounds way wrong. Approximately 180 degrees late. Is that what you meant to say? BTW, it would not be strange at all for the chain to hop as soon as you hit the key. The whole valve train is five years dry. Big time friction. Wheezing through the carb would make me look again at the timing gear. Where is the ignition rotor pointing when #1 is TDC compression stroke. That is often a dead giveway. A tooth of cam gear is probably 20 degrees or retard at the ignition rotor (estimation, you would have to count total cam gear teeth.) Usually very evident the ignition is retarded when you hop a cam gear tooth or two.

Dewayne

 

I'm just messin' with both of you about the AutoZone engine, I have one, and it does everything and more than I ask of it (knock on wood). I have a completely different midset, I like to know that every sytem onboard is operated by the most effiecient device possible. For instance, instead of just trying to keep the engine from overheating, I look into the most efficient, durable, and powerful method of accomplishing this, in this case I choose electric cooling fans, because they help the water pump last longer by reducing bearing stress as well as parasitic loss, while placing the fan much closer to the radiator fins for optimum heat transfer. I view this as an undying science, always searching for better ways to do things. That's because engineering is my profession. What if the Army Air Force said that the P-51 Mustang was an adequate airplane, and continued to mass produce them with the weaker American-built Allison V-10? Had it not been for a curious engineer who decided to see what a Rolls Royce V-10 could do, then we would have been tremendously overpowered in the skies over Europe in WWII. Do we need all that monstrous power those English engines made? Do I need head studs, Fel-Pro gaskets, a high-tech cam, and an MSD ingintion? No, but if you want to be the best, it's what you have to do. I consider hot rodding to be hands-on training in a problem solving situation, as well as THE great American hobby, and I really do look up to what you have to say, you've both been doing this a lot longer than me, and I appreciate your insight.

The TorqueKing

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 08-Jun-02 AT 10:50 AM (EST)]Torque King

Warning, we are going of topic again.

I know you are messing with us and that is fine. If we can't be entertained a little then why bother. Now listen up youngin' whilst I learn you something. Why did you have to pull the military example into this? Now read on while I twist your words. I agree progress is good if you want to stay on top of the game. Change just for the sake of it is not. HUMMERs are clearly superior to Jeeps operationally. They are faster, haul more and are near impossible to stick in the mud. Hummers also have plastic fans with hydraulic clutches that often grenade when you ford water, electronic control boxes that are recalled annually and very expensive tires that last 5000 miles. I also maintain Howitzers and currently have broken ones in IL, KY and LA. They are now mostly made of aluminum and are easily broken by careless barge companies. I liked the reliability of the old steel ones we won a couple wars with, but that's just me.

You stay on the bleeding edge, Rage and Fenders will sort through the rubble and pick out the true automotive progress. I did purchase an MSD Blaster II coil and there are a lot of mild Edelbrock pieces on my ride. I am not completely close minded.

Fenders

 

OK, OK, I had to read it twice to understand what you're saying, but I'm with you now. (Um, long night last night!) I'll run back over there and check it again. I thought that the rotor was about right, but I've had the distributor out 4 times now and although I marked where it was, I can't say for sure that I haven't dropped it back in where it SHOULD go versus where it was. I'll watch the valves cycle again and see exactly where the intake is closing. Actually, it wouldn't break my heart if it did need a chain and gears. It's still got the nylon cam gear on it. The water pump is leaking and I'll have it off anyway. I'd rather find out I'm off a tooth or three and fix that than fight with stuck rings. If that's the deal, I might never get it to run right. I should have mentioned earlier that although it hasn't ran in five years, I have gone out and cranked it over once a year or so. I just never tried to start it - I had robbed the coil off of it right after it went in the barn. I THOUGHT that keeping it limber would help me avoid crap like this!!!

 

And here's the update. Ya got me, 'fenders. You were right. I was correct in as much as the intake valve was closing as it rolled up to TDC. If I'd thought about it a little longer, I'd have realized that wasn't right. I jerked the front end off the engine and sure enough, the plastic was knocked off the cam gear. Mystery solved. Thanks for the help! You too, Torqueboy. You're lecture on airplane powerplants was extremely helpful.

 

Rage

Good to hear you got it figured out. Please read your FTE mail when you can. Now here is a place "Aftermarket Man" can help us out. OEM chain sets suck. Who's got the best timing set under say $500 right now?

Dewayne

 

I have Crane Blazer double roller. It doesn't have the 8 degree retard that factory Ford chains have, so you'll pick up 8 degrees of advance if you throw it in strait up, and it has keyways to go 0, -4, or +4 degrees for max torque. Usually the Blazer line is Crane's low end lineup, but I looked into it, and it IS a true double roller, with hardened steel gears, so there's really no way this one won't perform. It sells for $38.99 in the Jeg's catalogue, clearly the most affordable double roller on earth. The single rollers are not but a few dollars cheaper, and this double-roller is virtaully stretch and deflection free, for accurate timing under any conditions. All the cheaper replacements are either factory-retarded or failure prone. Dynagear makes your alternative, but it is a single gear. the double roller is a bit more difficult to install, simply b/c you can't make it deflect, so you gotta side it on the crank at the same rate as you slide it in the cam.

BTW, I am the biggest fan of old technology being superior to new. I greatly respect your experiences, and your service to our great nation. You don't see me pushing Mod-motors around here, do you? I would say the most painful example of new material sucking is the V-22 Osprey trying to replace the tried-and-ture Chinook helicopters (forget the numeric call sign). An example of new stuff being superior is the F-22 replacing the F-15. not that there was anything wrong with our Iron Eagle, but check out what the F-22 can do, and does (the actually "does" part is the most critical phase of engineering). I won't even get into what the F-22 can do, I can talk for hours, literally, on this. And, pause, catch my breath, the final word on combat is the replacement for the A-10. Why do we replace such a wonderful airplane? Because the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is the greatest thing to ever wear wings. I get so excited just hearng that name, I can't even breath. I've seen the blueprints, diagrams, and specs, and let's just say this: don't count on anyone, ever, pissing us off again in any time of war situation. I gotta get off this, or I'm gonna end up writing 25 pages here.

'77 F100, 302 (the aftermarket Prodigy) C4 with 2.75 (3.55's coming soon)
The TorqueKing

 

TK or anyone with the answer.

For what purpose would Ford ever intentionally retard a camshaft that was engineered to run with a given valve timing? It would degrade power, economy etc. I see no possible advantage to doing this. I know they de-tuned in the 70's with lower compression and retarded ignition timing to account for the loss of leaded fuels. Are you saying that if Rage goes to the Ford dealer and buys one of those wonderful OEM plastic cam gears, his cam will be instantly retarded 8 degrees from the engineered timing in the cam. Help me out with this one. It makes no sense to me.

I agree that about $40 is the best I have seen for a decent timing gear set. I tried to run a cheap double roller long ago and it was loose in 10,000 miles. Must not have had good hardened chain rollers I suppose.

Fenders

 

The reason is, research showed them that retarded valve timing reduced emissions. I'm sure that it was such a small gain that it would never be noticed, but Ford execs. have been in bed with the EPA for a very long time, they'd do anything to lower emissions, hence the death of the Windsor-fired Mustangs in 1995. And yes, any time that a part says that it is made to OEM specs, it means that it carries the machined-in retard. From a performance standpoint, advancing the cam timing will favor low-end torque, retarding it pushes the peak torque later in the RPM band. It doesn't make a profound difference, but our favorite automaker put performance in the back seat during this era. The good news is, that we can correct for this nowadays with relatively inexpensive aftermarket parts. And for the record, the Crane Blazer is heat-treated for maximum durability.

The TorqueKing

 

Oh good GRIEF!!! I have GOT to lay off the beer! LOL I've got to read everything twice to make heads or tails of it! Like I said, guys, this is an old work truck. That and any modifications whatsoever would be wasted due to the weak heads that are on it. Actually, the reason I'm trying to get it running is that I'm going to sell it. Wonder what a '67 F-250 with a surprisingly straight and solid body goes for? Hmmm... ANYWAYS! The chain info is good, though. I'm going to be looking for a good double roller chain and gears here shortly for the '51 buildup. My shortblock is bulletproof, but I going to be swapping heads, cam, and valvetrain. Looks like I need to take a look at the Blazer line.