Hey all,

I am considering an alloy manifold for one of my project 351 Clevelands. Two I have found are the:

Eldebrok torker;
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/man_ford_351c.html
And the Wieland Stealth;
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/AMS/AMSM/7517.html

I am leaning towards an eldebrock carb, and I want opinions from people who have used either of the abouve intakes, (Hp, MPG, price etc) and, if anyone knows of another alloy intake. This is a street rig, so the Victor Yates 4500-8500 rpm and the Tunnel Rams are not an option for me.

Thanks in advance
335C

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 08-Jun-02 AT 11:08 AM (EST)]The Torker is a single plane manifold, and is not good for low end torque. A street driven vehicle is much better with all the low end torque you can get. The Stealth manifold works from 1500 up to 7000 RPM's, so it would be a much better choice. The problem is, I can't find a listing for one for a 351C in any of my catalogs. If you can find one, buy it. If not, the Edelbrock Performer is available for both 2 barrel and 4 barrel 351C heads from Summit for $169.95. This is a dual plane manifold, and builds power from off idle to 5,500 RPM's. Whichever manifold you decide on, a good carb for both performance and mileage is the Edelbrock Performer, and the Carter AFB. They go for between $209.00 and $219.00, depending on which brand, and if you go for a 600 or 750 CFM. They're actually the same carb, and are made by Weber. I have one of each, and also have several Holleys. I've had better results with the first two I mentioned. I don't have any of the new Holley carbs, so it's possible one could do as well as the others.

 

>The Stealth manifold works from 1500 up
>to 7000 RPM's, so it would be a much
>better choice.
Thanks

>the Edelbrock Performer is available for both 2
>barrel and 4 barrel 351C heads from Summit for
>$169.95. This is a dual plane manifold, and builds
>power from off idle to 5,500 RPM's.
The vehicle this motor is finally ending up in will be a bit of a 'sleeper'. It looks like a pretty ordinary old '78 beast, but I want it to have some serious get up and go so I can beat that mug in his 2002 modle Commodore at the lights. For that reason I am using titanium valves, dual valve springs, 8000 rpm conrods, alloy flat-top pistons, etc, so it can really rev (without self-destructing) if I need to. While most of the time it won't be doing 5000 rpm +, the Stealth sounds like a good idea. What I am worried about with the Performer is, can I get it up to 7000 rpm when I need to?

>a good carb for both performance and mileage is the
>Edelbrock Performer, and the Carter AFB. They go for between
>$209.00 and $219.00, depending on which brand, and if you go
>for a 600 or 750 CFM. They're actually the same carb, and
>are made by Weber. I have one of each, and also have several
>Holleys. I've had better results with the first two I
>mentioned. I don't have any of the new Holley carbs, so it's
>possible one could do as well as the others.
Thanks. I am leaning towards the 750 Perfomer. I have heard of blokes using 800 CFM, and 850 CFM carbs, isn't this getting to the point of over-carburation? Any more ideas?

335C

 

Street wise I'd go with The Stealth manifold which works from 1500 up
to 7000 RPM's, so it would be a much
better choice.
ShaZam

And don't worry about taking up to 7000 Rpm's 5000 Rpm's will do the job.

 

Shazam,

Thanks for the advice. So far that's the manifold I am considering. Just out of interest, how high do you actually need to go with the cleveland bolw Commodores in the weed so to speak? I am aware Ford Australia took the cleveland up to 7000rpm, (and the vechile they put the motor in would make mince meat of Holdens) so I guess that 7000 is the Max. a blued and ballanced cleveland can go to on a regular basis without self destructuing.

335C

 

Will as you all Know I run the 400 in my Pulling Truck. and to me the 400 is just a stroked out 351C with an 1 inch taller deck. And I buzz mine to 8000 RPM's last season as often as I could. Yes it is Blueprinted and Balanced and has all the good stuff inside But it's build for Truck Pulling Not street driving, But for an everyday street engine that's not blueprinted or balanced I'd say 5000 RPM's is the most I'd spin them to.

ShaZam

 

Okay this one might start something but I've seen enough to speak out. Do not ditch the idea of using the Torker Intake Manifold because of old wive's tails. In dyno test done by Chet Herbert (Herbert Cams), Rouch Engines, HotRod Magazine, Car Craft Magazine, and many others, the Torker and TorkerII manifolds perform as well as, and sometimes even better then, the Performer and PerformerII intakes through out the entire rpm range.

Cam timing and valve lift are the key to what intake you should use. Short duration cams with low lift like the dual planes, but once you get into valve lift over .500, and timing durations above 220* at .050, your into the area where the Torker and TorkerII will do better across the whole board.

Even with cams as low as .485 lift 200* duration the Torker will only lose 2-5 hp and about the same in torque down low (below 2500). Then beat the duallys to death above 3500. Why do you think that EFI systems use very long radius tubes, because they bearth better. All those 90* turns in a dual plane intake restrict the flow of a well breathing (higher lift cam, bigger valves, ported heads, headers) engine. Not only that but at higher engine speeds, above 3500 rpm's, they play hell on the fuel mixture.

When you start designing an engine you have to start at the camshaft. Cams are the key, the heart, the soul of the power. Pick out the power range you want, pick the cam, then build the heads to flow for the cam, then intake to match the heads, then compression. The reason I said compression last is because you can build the same cylinder pressure with a 8.5 engine as you can with an 10.5 engine. It's all in the cam timing. I've seen 8.5 engines pushing 190 PSI cylinder pressure and runing 10.5's in the 1/4 all day long.

 

>Okay this one might start something but I've seen enough to
>speak out. Do not ditch the idea of using the Torker Intake
>Manifold because of old wive's tails. In dyno test done by
>Chet Herbert (Herbert Cams), Rouch Engines, HotRod Magazine,
>Car Craft Magazine, and many others, the Torker and TorkerII
>manifolds perform as well as, and sometimes even better
>then, the Performer and PerformerII intakes through out the
>entire rpm range.

Can you give me a web page where I can acutally read these reports please?


>Cam timing and valve lift are the key to what intake you
>should use. Short duration cams with low lift like the dual
>planes, but once you get into valve lift over .500, and
>timing durations above 220* at .050, your into the area
>where the Torker and TorkerII will do better across the
>whole board.
>
>Even with cams as low as .485 lift 200* duration the Torker
>will only lose 2-5 hp and about the same in torque down low
>(below 2500). Then beat the duallys to death above 3500. Why
>do you think that EFI systems use very long radius tubes,
>because they bearth better. All those 90* turns in a dual
>plane intake restrict the flow of a well breathing (higher
>lift cam, bigger valves, ported heads, headers) engine. Not
>only that but at higher engine speeds, above 3500 rpm's,
>they play hell on the fuel mixture.

The cam I am using is a Cran roller cam,
Degrees Duration @ .050 Intake: 246, Exhaust: 256
Degrees Advertised Duration Intake: 284, Exhaust: 294
Degree Lobe Separation: 108
Open/Close @.050" Cam Lift Intake: 20 46, Exhaust: 61 15
Lash Hot Intake: .024, Exhaust:.026
Gross Lift Intake: .560, Exhaust: .585

I have 4V heads, and I am looking at about 10.5:1 compression. I believe that this is just about as radical a cam as you could get away with on the street, and while as stated I want power, I like Shazam's idea of low end torque. Maybe I should go for a more mild cam.


335C

 

No I can't give you a web site. The info I posted comes from doing, building, and research. Your going to have to do some research on your own, but you can call Edlebrock and get the info I stated from them. They'll tell you the samething I just posted here. I've been building and drag racing for more then 25 years now (won class champion a couple of times).

The cam you've selected wont like a dual plane at all!! What exactly are you looking for? A weekend warrior, a part time cruiser/terrorizer, or a back and forth to work with some attitude truck?

 

>No I can't give you a web site. The info I posted comes from
>doing, building, and research. Your going to have to do some
>research on your own, but you can call Edlebrock and get the
>info I stated from them. They'll tell you the samething I
>just posted here. I've been building and drag racing for
>more then 25 years now (won class champion a couple of
>times).

Thank you. I am doing the research now, before I actually buy any parts or pull one of my clevelands apart.

>The cam you've selected wont like a dual plane at all!! What
>exactly are you looking for? A weekend warrior, a part time
>cruiser/terrorizer, or a back and forth to work with some
>attitude truck?

The car this motor is going in will occasionally be driven around town, but mostly it is for high speed cruising from townsville to cairns once or twice a year, and occasionally dragging commodores off. It'll burn waaayy too much fuel to be used everyday, yet I want it to last for years, so I have been modleing the engine off the early '70's GTHO engines. Maybe a less radical cam?

335C

 

For a certain amount of respect, good topend, and ok fuel mileage this is the way I would go.

Engine
Cam 282-290* Advertised Duration with .485 to .494 lift. mech or 280* .520/535 roller
Dual spring with a damper on the valves.
Stainless Steel 2.040 Intake 1.654 exhaust
1.73 full roller rockers
Mill the 2v heads .030 and have the intake side cut to match
polish the chambers
port the pockets and port match the intake
Holley or Edlebrock 700 CFM carb. Vacuum Sec's on the Holley.
TorkerII Intake
Mallory MSD 6 or 7 with a blaster coil and MSD distributer
High Volume Oil Pump
9.0/1 rated pistons (with the milled 2v heads should get you around 9.7)
Factory rods, beams polished, shot peened,
Factory crank, only turn it if it needs it. Champher the oil galleys,
Restricters for the topend oil system.
1.75 or 2" full headers into a 3" collecter place your cross over apox 18 to 20" from the collecters followed with 2.5 duals

Transmission
EOD with a 2800 rpm stall. This engine will push the stall speed upto around 32-3400
Tranny coller with an added external tranny filter
have the EOD built with a street/strip kit in the valve body
rear end 3.73 or 4.11 gears. I would personally go with the 3.73's as the EOD first gear will make them feel like 4.33's off the line and act like 3.23's on the fly.


In a 3200lb car this setup will get you around an 11.9 et (traction and driver will make that vary) and, with the EOD, will pull from off line till 6400 rpm's
MPG with a light foot will be around 13-15 in town and 17-21 highway (with an EOD)

 

I hate to argue with 25 years experience but I know a dual plane intake that likes big cams. Ford Power Parts sells an intake (#4145) by Blue Thunder that was used in a '94 intake shootout on a 377/351C motor. I have the article scanned already. Solid roller 264/270 @ .050, .723" lift. 13.7-1 compression. It kicked the crap out of the Torker intake at any RPM below 6700.

B/T made 425 FT Torque @ 3750
Torker = 421 FT Torque @ 4750

B/T was 490 HP @ 6250
Torker = 480 HP @ 6750

 

>Engine
>Cam 282-290* Advertised Duration with .485 to .494 lift.
>mech or 280* .520/535 roller
>Dual spring with a damper on the valves.
>Stainless Steel 2.040 Intake 1.654 exhaust

I have heard that Titanium valves are better, true/false in you opinion?

>1.73 full roller rockers
>Mill the 2v heads .030 and have the intake side cut to match
>polish the chambers
>port the pockets and port match the intake
>Holley or Edlebrock 700 CFM carb. Vacuum Sec's on the
>Holley.

Souns, OK, but ithe GTHOS had 780CFM carbies, what whould you say about me putting on a 750 Eldebrock Performer, or 780 Holley? Also I have 4V heads, they give better topend don't they?

>TorkerII Intake
>Mallory MSD 6 or 7 with a blaster coil and MSD distributer
>High Volume Oil Pump

No way in the world I'd go without the HV oil pump!!!!

>9.0/1 rated pistons (with the milled 2v heads should get you
>around 9.7)
>Factory rods, beams polished, shot peened,
>Factory crank, only turn it if it needs it. Champher the oil
>galleys,

I was thinking of 8000 rpm conrods, a L crankshaft and bolts, wouldn't this be stronger than stock? I like the idea of building around a 1000rpm saftey margin. I mean, if in theory it can do 8000 rpm and i stick a little bit below 7000, it's gotta be safe?

>Restricters for the topend oil system.
>1.75 or 2" full headers into a 3" collecter place your cross
>over apox 18 to 20" from the collecters followed with 2.5
>duals
>Transmission
>EOD with a 2800 rpm stall. This engine will push the stall
>speed upto around 32-3400
>Tranny coller with an added external tranny filter
>have the EOD built with a street/strip kit in the valve body
>rear end 3.73 or 4.11 gears. I would personally go with the
>3.73's as the EOD first gear will make them feel like 4.33's
>off the line and act like 3.23's on the fly.

Just out of interest the GTHO's had 3.00 and 3.25 gears (3.5 ava. I think) I would much prefer a manual, seeing as my car was originaly an auto and I went to the trouble of converting it. I got borg-warner single rail 4 speed, but soon I'm getting a top-loader and that was also factory in the GTHOs.

>
>
>In a 3200lb car this setup will get you around an 11.9 et
>(traction and driver will make that vary) and, with the EOD,
>will pull from off line till 6400 rpm's
>MPG with a light foot will be around 13-15 in town and 17-21
>highway (with an EOD)

That sounds about what I want. Can I get the same effect as the EOD with a toploader? 11.9 is enough to beat the commodores and 17-21 not too bad either.

 

OK, I think I have at one time or another posted most of this information, but I think it is relevent here.

I have tried both a factory 4bbl 2v dual plane intake and an aftermarket street torker single plane (Redline) on my 351C (which has a fairly lumpy cam, electronic distributor, headers, dual exhausts and 750 holley and stock 2v open chamber heads), and I must say that it still hauls off the line. I run it with a shift kitted c4, 245/55/R14 tyres, 3.89:1 gears and a slightly higher than stock stall on the convertor (I think about 1800 rpm).

Now, when I was using the factory dual plane intake, the car was still running 3.23:1 gears, and I found that there was awesome bottom end torque but the power would really drop off aboue about 4500 rpm.
When I bolted on the single plane intake, I still had the 3.23:1 gears and I must admit, it lost a little torque in the first few thousand rpm, but was able to pull hard right up to 5500+rpm, still with the stock 2v heads. With the 3.89:1 gears, the car shows the same power off the mark as it did with the dual plane intake and 3.23:1 gears, but is now happy to rev significantly higher so I still change gears at a similar road speed when giving it stick.

A good example in the difference in torque at idle between the two set ups is as follows:

With the 3.23:1 gears and dual plane intake, the car really wanted to creep forward when placed in 1st gear (stopped, with foot on the brake) and not as much when placed in 2nd (naturally). When I changed intakes but not gearing, I found that the amount of torque in first gear at idle was diminished to be similar to what I had experienced with the dual plane in 2nd gear at idle, but when I changed the gearing to 3.89:!, I again had the same strong torque at idle, to the point that even with a new booster and FD LTD brakes up front, I have to push quite hard on the brakes to stop the car creeping forward (or rather lurching forward due to the lumpy cam).

My advise it, don't use a Performer intake with the setup you've described, as it is similar to the factory 2v 4bbl intake (though you'll save maybe 15kg) and is really better suited to stock cammed motors. I really noticed the difference when I moved to the single plane; it really seemed to open up the breathing at higher rpms and I am using stock 2v heads! On a 4v headed motor, especially with the cam you listed, I would use nothing less than a low-rise single plane intake like the one I am using now (made my Redline).

A 750 holley will suit the motor fine; the reason I am using a 750 is really due to my aspirations to improve the motor in the future; I didn't want to have to upgrade again.

If you are going to use a high volume oil pump, make sure to fit a restrictor kit as well, and a high volume oil pan. I have heard horror stories of motors being destroyed due to all the oil being pumped to the top at high rpms leading to bearing 'failure'.

True, the Bathurst cars revved to 8000rpm with stock (blueprinted) parts but what they don't tell you in most ford stories is that over half of the XW and XY cleveland race cars retired due to engine failure in the 70/71 races. Furthermore, an old ex-Ford engineer who worked on the development of the cleveland for racing in 1970 told me something you also don't hear about much and that is that if you rev a clevo to 6250 for more than about 10 seconds it (the block) will shatter as this is the destructive harmonic frequency of the motor (I think that's what it is called?). Little wonder that the road cars came fitted with 6150 rpm rev limiters!

PS, even with stock 2v heads, my XY regularly thrashes the pants off WRX's, GTS-T skylines, 350 Monaros etc. On the street, bottom end is what matters and everyone else is always playing catchup to the XY due to it's hardcore bottom end (with the 3.89's) combined with its ability to rev hard to at least 5500rpm.

 

>If you are going to use a high volume oil pump, make sure to
>fit a restrictor kit as well, and a high volume oil pan. I
>have heard horror stories of motors being destroyed due to
>all the oil being pumped to the top at high rpms leading to
>bearing 'failure'.

Will do.

>True, the Bathurst cars revved to 8000rpm with stock
>(blueprinted) parts but what they don't tell you in most
>ford stories is that over half of the XW and XY cleveland
>race cars retired due to engine failure in the 70/71 races.
So most of the GTHOs blew up?? I was under the impresion blueprinted they could do 6.5g through the gears, 7g in top and hold 5.8 all day.


>PS, even with stock 2v heads, my XY regularly thrashes the
>pants off WRX's, GTS-T skylines, 350 Monaros etc. On the
>street, bottom end is what matters and everyone else is
>always playing catchup to the XY due to it's hardcore bottom
>end (with the 3.89's) combined with its ability to rev hard
>to at least 5500rpm.

Hahaha!!! thats what I wanted to hear,

Thank you,
335C