i have a 351M that i will most likely turn into a 400 and all the goodies: aussie heads, timing chain, Cam, intake, etc ...
i don't know what is the Actual converter in it. any easy way of finding what kind of converter i have?
will i have to change the torque converter as well if i do all of these upgrades? What if i keep it that way?

Thank you for any help.

werk


GMC = Generally Misconstructed Crap

 

what is it in, and what do you want it to do?

 

its in a 75 ranchero and i want to scare some camaro:P and do some quarter mile with it too

Thanks in advance,

werk

GMC = Generally Misconstructed Crap

 

no way!

me too - mine's a '75 ranchero, and i'm going to replace the 351W & FMX tranny with a 400 & C4.

i have been told in the ranchero forum that they're over 4200 pounds. if i get it down to 4000 pounds, it will still take close to 500HP to the slicks (which i think is like 575 or 600 flywheel) to run low 12's.

i haven't figured it all out yet, but roughly i'm planning on:
400 block, 20 or 30 over
main studs, maybe a girdle
stock crank
stock rods, arp bolts
pistons/deck height/gasket/chamber work to make 11:1 or maybe higher depending on the cam
balanced recip assy
4v heads, machined for studs
race valves, good valve job
intake guide & bowl work, exhaust port & polish
roller cam - maybe solid - depends on how high i'll have to rev it to max out the heads
roller rockers
whatever springs, pushrods, etc i need for the cam
single-plane 351C 4v intake with spacer plates - torker or bigger
at LEAST 3000 stall - maybe higher
3.89 gears, because they're already in there
hooker super comp headers for 351C 4v in a torino, because i already have them. i hope they fit...

as you can see, i still have a lot of stuff to figure out. i probably need to get one of those desktop dyno programs and try some different combo's. if i can get 500 HP to the wheels with a hydraulic roller, 11:1 compression, and a torker intake, then that is what i'll do. if that won't cut it, then i'll have to figure out the cheapest way to get there. ideally, i'd like to run 12.0's - as fast as you can go without installing a cage...

 

PS - if i did all that without changing the converter, cement trucks would beat me off the line! :-X23

 

>depends on how high i'll have to rev it to max out the heads


i have to ask, have you seen the 4v port size up close? im willing to bet the motor blows before you max out the heads.

 

I couldn't agree more; a set of well ported 4v heads will allow a 351C to rev to 10,000+rpm. I can't imagine many 400's holding together at those rpms (Shazam exc.)

 

>>depends on how high i'll have to rev it to max out the heads
>
>
>i have to ask, have you seen the 4v port size up close? im
>willing to bet the motor blows before you max out the heads.


why yes, i have seen them up close. i checked out the valve guide & bowl area last weekend. i started by tying a rope around my waist, and the other end to the hitch on the explorer. i told my wife if i wasn't back by dark, to start up the explorer and drag me out. i took a thermos of coffee, a lunch, a flashlight, and my cell phone, and climbed down into the port, just as the sun began to brighten the eastern sky...

it reminded me of the time i had to walk through the tunnel under the houston ship channel during a blackout, only the 4v port was roomier. as i walked along, i got kind of scared, so i started humming to myself. once i thought i heard a noise - maybe bats. i shined my 5D mag light straight up, but i couldn't see the ceiling!

hoping it WAS just bats, and not a bear - or worse - i picked up the pace and soon got to the point where the short side radius dropped off an an angle too steep for me to go any further. by now my eyes had gotten used to the dark and, shining my powerful light, i could just barely make out the areas i had come to look at. i memorized as much as i could, then took off at a trot, out the way i'd come in.

several hours later, i arrived at the port entrance just in time to stop my wife from dragging me out with the rope! i was happy just to see the sky again for a few minutes before sunset...

 

ok, seriously - even Shazam doesn't rev tooo much over 8000, so yeah, i think 10K would break it!

you have a good point though - if he's making 800 HP, then i'm obviously NOT going to max them out making 600... at least on the INTAKE side - exhaust is another matter. i think he runs the thick exhaust plate though - the type that the head bolts go through. i was NOT thinking about doing that.

well, ok - i THOUGHT about it, but it looks like headaches and trouble and cu$tom header$... i was thinking more along the lines of a die grinder and some carbide burrs, and maybe something like the MPG stinger plates, which are like a steel header gasket with fingers that block off the lower part of the port.

any suggestions?

any ideas how high i'd have to rev it to make 600HP at the flywheel, or 500 - 525 at the wheels?

i saw some hydraulic rolley lifters (federal mogul?) on ebay that said they were "good" to 7000 rpm. that sounds like a stretch to me - the mustang factory rev limiter is at 6250, and it seems like i've heard the most you can RELIABLY get out of any hydraulic is a little over 6500... but maybe they invented some kind of new valve or something - anybody know?

 

well, all i know is that my gears are 3.00
i have a C4 tranny automatic 3 speeds.
would like to know what is the torque converter i have in it right now, how do i find out? any easy way?
Nice setup Blue93gt!

thanks,

Werk


GMC = Generally Misconstructed Crap

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 14-Aug-02 AT 01:33 PM (EST)]it WOULD be nice, if i actually HAD it... right now, all i have is a garage full of heavy iron things!

i think stock converters are around 2000 rpm or less. you can get a rough idea by putting it in gear, holding the brakes as hard as you can, and slowly flooring the gas. the stall speed is more or less how high the engine can rev with the wheels locked. i think there's more to it than that though - but that's the basic idea. that method may be a couple hundres rpm off. i've never had an automatic on a motor built for high rpm, so i don't know very much about converters yet - can somebody here shed some light on this?

i've heard that a motor built to get power out of the 4v heads won't really start pulling GOOD until about 3500 rpm, so it would seem that a pretty high stall would be needed. of course the 4" stroke may reduce that need somewhat. does anybody here have a dyno graph from a 400 making about 500 HP at the wheels?

to get something heavy to move, you need a low gear ratio (high number). the problem is that the gears that get you moving quickly will make your motor turn unacceptably high rpm's on the highway - especially with a non-overdrive tranny. so unless you have a trailered race car or live pretty close to the track, you have to compromise on the gears. but 3.00's are WAY to low to get a '70's ranchero moving! those are "fuel economy" gears, and probably really nice for lots of highway driving too! the 3.89's in mine were factory installed, and you know anything that comes stock is not going to be TOO radical for daily driving. in fact, 4.11's are probably more what i'll need, but i'll have to see how high my revs are at the finish line with the 3.89's first.

if you just want to get it into the high 12's, then i think about a 450 HP buildup with aussie heads would do it, which would make power at lower revs. then the torque converter wouldn't need to be so radical (maybe 2400 instead of 3400) and just overall it would be a lot cheaper & easier to build and operate on the street.

PS - are you sure you have a C4? i thought 351M's usually had C6's. i had to do some looking to find the right bellhousing!

 

Thanks for the reply blue93Gt
yeah i have a C4 behind my 351M.
that's what's the shape of the oil pan suggest, according to what i have read here and there. BTW, i am in the process of rebuilding my aussie heads and i am going to put some 4V valves into it, 2.19 and 1.71 , i have heard some good and bad things about this mod, anyone can help here, is it a good move? i ask before the work is done, because i want to do it right the first time. I also want to gasket match my ports but i wonder if i should look for a particular brand of gasket to match them to? i actually have a set of ROL brand gaskets, are these any good for matching?


Thanks,

Werk

GMC = Generally Misconstructed Crap

 

hey blue93gt, look at this baby on ebay with a 400 engine...
looks pretty cool!!!


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1851165127&r=0&t=0

Werk

GMC = Generally Misconstructed Crap

 

>yeah i have a C4 behind my 351M.
>that's what's the shape of the oil pan suggest, according to
>what i have read here and there.

The C6 and the C4 have similar tranny pans. But the C6 is larger. The C4 was not offered from the factory on the 351m/400 as far as i know. The only not huge tranny that was offered with the torquey motor was the FMX tranny in 1973 only. The FMX has a square pan and has the smallblock bolt pattern. The 429/460 have the same bellhousing as the 400.
Hope that clears some confusion.

 

Well my 351M is original and Came with a C4
it's a 1975. So they did put a C4 behind a 351M at some time.
if any of you have seen this before, speak up.

thanks,

Werk


GMC = Generally Misconstructed Crap