HI all

anyone that could provide me with a brakeline diagram RABS for the ´92 E150

seems like someone has changed front and rear brakelines on my E150 before buying it.

Haynes tells me that the primary outlet near the booster is for the front end and the rear is supplied from the other (far) outlet

but mine is the other way around (near to rear)

and I dont have any braking power in the front , but far too much on the rear as the allready has burned the rear brakes, read heavy smoke !

tried to change the line yesterday and now (when rear end i jacked) is seem much more right , the braking power at rear isnt that hugh as before !

but now my front brakes are locked caused by the weird bolt/nut placed in the pri. outlet !

so the sits in the garage for now .........grrrrrrrrrr

whats wrong in this ??
what is this wierd bolt/nut doing , I can figure out that its a kinda oneway valve ....but in a brakeline ???????? and it only fits into the pri. outlet as the 2 outlet are different sizes.

Thanks in advance

Sincerly
JCBX

 

My '92 E150 has the front (nearest radiator) master cylinder outlet connected to the L front brake flexhose manifold. The outlet nearest the booster goes to rear.

My 36094 Haynes has a rather cartoonish drawing on page 9-2 showing the same, right under the text telling you otherwise!

The "wierd bolt/nut" might be the "control valve that is built in" Haynes mentions. Bleeding these systems gets more complicated, the '92 has an extra bleed screw on the RABS valve ~under your feet, on L frame.

If you have "burned the rear brakes, read heavy smoke !" & now "front brakes are locked" I don't see it all "caused by the weird bolt/nut". Even hooked up wrong & imbalanced rear brakes shouldn't smoke. That sounds more like seized up wheel cylinders, issues w/brake adjusters or the emergency brake, or air in lines. Locked front brakes sound more like seized calipers or pistons, constricted flexhoses, or air in lines.

Try just loosening the fitting at MC to relieve any pressure & see if the front wheels free up. If you find them still locked, w/o the possibility of line pressure, you need to look down stream for cause. A common misconception is that these systems are under pressure. At rest pressure should be nil, most pressure found at rest is usually from trapped air.

Many are surprised that otherwise good looking old flex hoses can shrink up, resulting in constriction that impedes the return of brake fluid when you let off the brake. Check to see if the brake pads/pistons can be pressed smoothly & easily back into the caliper. Fluid should return to the reservoir, if excessively stiff, open the bleeder to gauge if the resistance is in the fluid or seals. Once cooked, seals can no longer relax, subsequent frictional heat will only make matters worse. An open bleeder should do just that-'bleed' brake fluid. Constricted flex hoses won't let a drop thru unless forced, they act like oneway valves trapping pressure & forcing pads against rotors.

Also note that Haynes exploded view drawing 9.6 shows a master cylinder w/outlets on the wrong side!

 

Hi

thanks for the serious answer

now when I have changed the lines front and rear the pressure stays on thru the control valve on the primary outlet !

just releasing it on teh secondary site of the CV makes the pressure goes to zero !

one apply on the brakes naturaly makes it block the front again !

could it be that the CV has an internat defect ? or is it normaly a one way valve ?

I noticed that when replacing drums, brakes , pads ect ect I had no chance to depress the rear wheel cylinders ! this today I can tell is caused by this CV that wont allow the fluid to return to the master cylinder !

and off cause this is going to burn my drumbrakes :-(

still on burning theese I didnt have enough force to block the front ???

my brake today is firm and seems more correctly when disregarding the block up of the front brakes !

so focus must be on what does the tiny valve do and could it have an internal fault !

exactly the same Haynes of mine has absolutly no drawings on any pages , and mc i located in 9-14 and is the correct mc !

but is the built in control valve as mentioned in Haynes not the white flimsy plastic thing between the primary an the secondary piston inside the master cylinder ? this causing a spring delayed not so hard hyd. pressure to the rear end via the sec. outlet ??

Hmmmmmmmmmm

any suggestions ???

any FORD diagrams ???

any .. any .....

Sincerly
JCBX

 

Sorry, not following you 100%. Balked w/"CV" which means Constant Velocity to me. You can't discount the possibility that any component might have "an internat defect".

Not sure why "focus must be on what does the tiny valve do and could it have an internal fault". Hard to imagine the "wierd bolt/nut" could bind up both front & rear? Similarly I'd thought the Split System isolated the RABS valve from front brakes.

IMO it wouldn't take much "pressure" that "stays on" getting to any wheel to cause that brake to drag on these vehicles. Still don't see why rears are "burning" & you alternately complain you "didnt have enough force to block the front ???" & "disregarding the block up of the front brakes !"

Front brakes need to 'relax' when your foot is off. The seals should flex piston back, the caliper should slide & the rotor runout should conspire to force the pad away enough to skim just off the rotors, w/o friction, enough to run cool & prevent premature wear. The fluid that was displaced by your foot on the pedal, must essentially all return freely to the MC.

Rear brakes rely mostly on their springs in order to return to the rest position, just out of contact w/drum. Sticky wheel cylinders can upset the adjusters, the springs need to be able to overcome resistance, returning the pistons home against the adjuster. Again, while running, pressure should be virtually nil at rear wheel cylinders, only those odd springs retract the shoes.

I regularly suggest folks drive to a quiet road & coast to a stop, after running long enough to cool off brakes, so they can inspect the brakes. By touching each wheel you can tell if any are running hot. Brakes should run cool. Even if you check them hot, you can often tell which are the hottest. Any air inside acts like a spring, overcoming the small forces that return brakes to rest. Running w/dragging brakes can go unnoticed, but the excess friction raises the temp, shortens component life & cuts into MPG. When you talk about burning, smoking, locking, or blocked brakes, to me it means you've got to replace the brakes. A smoking/burning brake will have compromised the disc or drum, essentially ruined the friction material on pad or shoe & possibly damaged the critical hydraulic seals.

When rebuilding my E150 brakes I did not look inside the MC for a "white flimsy plastic thing". I looked for the best local price for a new Wagner MC.

 

Hi

Thanks for the answer, sorry for the misunderstanding of CV, I ment control valve.

I did replace all parts at first

then on the 1. run it burned the rear brakes after using it several times !

double checked my self and Haynes told me that primary outlet near booster had to go to front brakes , mine was the other way around !

changed this ! and the rear was ok but the front was locked after bleeding

only way to loosen them is to loosen the line just on the secondary site of this control valve in the primary outlet of the master cylinder !

this means that this valve dont allow fluid to return to the master cylinder, causing the rear brakes to burn in the 1. place and after changing the front/rear lines the front brakes to block, someone told me the english word for this valve is "residue valve" , and I cant find anything anywhere about this item thow its on all pictures on "doityourself" websites

can anyone tell me how this valve should work correctly and why its there , also witch line (front / rear) goes to witch outlet on the master cylinder !

this valve can only be placed in the primary outlet as the primary and secondary outlet are different sizes.

maybee someone has a brakeline diagram to show how it should be (RABS)

thanks in advance

Sincerly
JCBX

 

Not only does "this valve" only fit 1 outlet b/c of different size, but the brake lines should only fit the correct outlets b/c these outlets & fittings are also different sizes-if my '92 is like yours. The significance of "primary" & "secondary" was designed in so you should not make a mistake.

You would've needed to cut off the fittings at the ends, swap them & create new flares when you "changed this"?

Since you've changed so many things, its beginning to sound like a Can of Worms. Guess you'll need to conduct a poll to decide which line goes to which outlet. The old Rule of Thumb: when replacing brake lines, or spark plug wires, do them 1 at a time in order to avoid confusion. Sorry the direct observation of my functional '92 & review of Haynes did not resolve this for you. I just double checked for you by walking out to my '92 w/flashlight again, also reconfirmed the outlet size difference by looking at the old MC I'd removed.

Curious what's stopping you from replacing the "wierd bolt/nut" "residue valve" that you continue to suspect? I'm sure you've read of the critical importance of cleanliness in hydraulic brake work in the DIY sources? Having recently replaced all the front brake lines on my '92 its difficult to understand how you could be confused about where the lines go. In my experience they're each unique & can only fit 1 way.

At that point, if not fixed, I'm not sure a "diagram" or even a side by side is going to help you & suggest you get a local mechanic to look at it.

 

Hi Club wagon !

Thanks for your serious inputs and checking you van as well

it is possible to change the 2 lines in the secondary ends as they are the same and both lines are 140cm long ..... I know they end to different places ! teh master cylinder outlets ... are as you say !

long story now ;-) follow me please !

this E150 has been sitting for 3 years when I trailered it home 4 weeks ago !

last inspection the E150 was denied running caused by some braking problems

with this in mind ! I did replace everything (but not the recedue valve as I cant find it anywhere 4 sale)

1. trial showed the rear to block in the hard way !

..... trying to figure it out and comparing it to several Haynes (Volvo, Mustang and Vans) it should be the pri. outlet that had the front lines mounted ! so I changed it !
and it then moved the problem to the front end ! now I know its the recedue valve thats causing the problem !

My problem today is ...... what is this recedue valve doing .... ? and I have tried to located a new one at autorock and some other places .... and non was found ... s I couldnt replace it .... and I dont know why its there in the first place ! seems odd if its an one vay valve as this cant work probberly in the future ! the fluid must - at least some of it - return to the master cylinder !

I read and understood that you lines was as mine was in the first place ! and I need to put them back ! still when no solution is on the recedue valve it seems ...hmmm

should I remove this valve once and for all or is it possible to find an excact replacement ?? still changing the lines back to as was !

my thourght was taht it was possible for some other guy in the past to have replaced theese brakelines wrongly , and not knowing witch line had to be where it was obvius that they where changed ! also when it allready had been rejected on inspection 3 years ago !

there is no manual than Haynes/chilton in DK ----non and there is no mek. to turn to ! this will allways be an DIY car in DK ;-) there is app. 10-12 E-lines in DK and you only see a glimse of one of them rarely !

Forums in this matter is the way to go ...... ;-) maybee it dont look that way (sorry for my bad english) but you allready helped me in a big way .....

now I´m looking forward for an explanation on this recedue valve ...... and a place to buy a new one ! then the system should function correctly again and be ready for a new inspection :-)

thanks in advance

Sincerly
JCBX

 

Well, if you can't find a new valve try pulling a used one out of an Econoline in a salvage yard. Try to find a Master Cyl. still working, install the used, if no problems you've solve the mystery. Around these parts a u-pull-it MC is cheep.

 

Sorry, you got me again w/abbreviations. Had no reason to ever consider your location.

Even after clicking your profile I had to presume "DK"= Denmark. That could make all the difference in the world-I've got 3 FORD dealers within ~30 miles.

I'd thought the suspect valve, at rear outlet on MC, regulates hydraulic pressure to the rear so as to help balance front to rear. Drum brakes tend to have more slack in them & it varies due to the simple adjusting mechanism & emergency brake lever. Whereas disc brakes are constantly self adjusting, very precisely, as fluid takes the place of pad wear. An exploded drawing of this valve, also called a metering valve, shows more complexity than the 'one-way' you imagine. Note: they appear to be assembled w/threads & staked & might be opened up. The rear MC piston is referred to as 'primary' b/c the pedal acts on it directly & the forward piston as 'secondary' b/c its normally activated by fluid pressure between it & the 'primary'.

Both MC circuits have compensation ports that are opened when the brake pedal returns to rest position. This should dump any return fluid pressure. Nothing should prevent fluid from flowing back into the MC at rest.

The odds that debris got inside seem to increase w/each post. The warnings are serious, tiny bits of crud (rust, metal burs, sludge resulting from contaminated fluid, gum from decayed seals, any kind of dirt, etc) can foul things up in hydraulic systems. If the MC was dismantled, it could easily have been reassembled incorrectly. It might be worth a try to pull the pesky little valve & check to see if debris blocks it, use compressed air at both ends. Have you tried FTE parts links for a replacement?

Thanks for confirming you're dealing with a 3 year old Can of Worms & are way out on the vine. Also rest easy, your English is fine. The problem is you're trying to deal with gremlins that defeated the last guy. Let's hope we can debug this globe trotting Econoline.

Its kind of funny, there are so many European vehicles we never get in the US. I always wanted 1 of the Citroen/Fiat front wheel drive vans from the 80's, definitely like Sprinters & am eager to see FORD Transits. I used to import vintage SAAB parts from Sweden. Had a '78 Citroen GSX on the road, that a UN diplomat brought in & abandoned, there were probably no more than 10-12 GS's in the US. Rust laid it up, then a tree fell on the rear of it!

 

Hi

;-) thanks for your input ! really serious input that both confirm me and educate me ....

got allmost all manuals for the E-line today from sweeden (had a swedish guy here trading them for an old stowe - not kidding !)

unfortunaly there isnt something that covers the body/chassis , would have loved to see a diagram of the routing of the brakelines ! and also a split drawing of that valve --- perhapse you know a source ..... seems like "Subford" on this forum has is as he show a lot jpeg´s .... unfortunaly I cant reach him as it must take 15 days before i´m allowed pm/mailing to anyone .

as for the source for a new valve I´m havnt found anyone yet ! seems impossible

You havnt missed anything in not having an van from over the pond ;-) maybee the sprinter but go for the one with one with most power as they are really really nice and fast and have a loooovly sound to the 5 cyl TD engines !

Transit ..never mind .... I do have one for daily use at work , new and its terrible , nothing positive to tell about it , even my old Volvo 745 TDI ´85 is better in all aspects .....

Even the Citroën´s own museum hasnt got an GSA witch was the one to have .... as they all was rusted away before they noticed that it was important to history !

If you want something new and VERY rare ! I do have 2 Volvo 780 Bertone Turbo B204GT and one is 4 sale ! this is only made in 165 pieces during 1990 to 1991 and the ´91 model was the 65 pieces of them .... both mine are ´91 ! naturaly i´m keeping the best for my self , the other is rather cheap but does need some minor tlk ! (could allways trade it for a new "valve" :-) )

 

You're ahead of me w/manuals, never had the factory set, got buy w/Haynes, Chilton & FORD's electrical/vacuum section & a Light Truck parts book. The, difficult to use, parts book had the exploded view of the type valve you suspect, but not a diagram of the brake lines. Someplace I sketched out how the lines run, they're hard to see between the steering box & toe board. What confused me was the manifold on the L front flexhose-I hadn't seen the hidden 'extra' line splitting off.

I recall transferring the old valve onto the new MC. Have no recollection if I even inquired about a new valve, only that I was disappointed Wagner didn't provide one. Guess it would be too slow and/or too expensive to order the valve from the US? Might be hard to find, but FORD has a system where participating dealers put obsolete parts in an online inventory. Did you wave the suggestion of disconnecting the valve to see if its blocked & can be cleaned?

Had 2 Citroen GS models, a RHD '72 in Australia & the Hungarian '78 GSX here, nearly bought a GSA, however the "VERY rare ! one to have" would have to be the GS BiRotor.

Sorry, I grew up in a world dominated by V8's "loooovly sound" & haven't been impressed for a very long time. That's been reinforced by the rise in the cost of fuel. When I started driving we complained when gas hit 30 cents & I could fill my SAAB for $3. I'd trade my FORD's 14 MPG & sound for Sprinter's 26 MPG & lack of sound any day of the week. The Citroen/Fiat front drive van I mentioned was smaller & would've done better. Will need to dig to find literature on it, can't even recall the model.

 

Hi

thanks again for you inputs ! great !

I will try today to pull it apart and have a look/see ! must be something inside that could be flushed away ! getting it to work again

I´ll get back to you with an uppdate on that

GS bi-rotor ......... neever heard of that one , any links ???

with the V8 in you boold how could you ever think about the Transit , this engine has the most terrible sound in the world ........ je..... I ha## that sound !

and fuel prices ! DONT GO THERE ! 11,-KR PER LITER IN DENMARK (DK)! I think its the same price in US but you´ll get a gallon intead (I´v heard)

Sincerly
JCBX

 

Don't recall ever searching online for Citroen GS BiRotor. It was described in Citroen sales literature.

Lots of people think Mazda's rotary engine had a "terrible sound". I nearly converted a SAAB Sonett to an RX-7 rotary, had the Sonett, had the running RX-7 parts car & still have the modified bell housing to adapt to V4 transaxle. IMO they do "sound terrible" but offer a lot of power in a small package & very high revs, especially compared to that V4.

VW Bugs also have a "terrible sound" & look how popular they were for decades. Never liked the way old Porsches "sound" either. Called them all Blow Flies.

I ran SAAB 2-Strokes for many years & know for a fact people run hot & cold on the unique "sound" they make. Guess "sound" isn't a major issue with me. I've been amused by the preoccupation with "sound" & lengths people will go to pursue really annoying loud "sound". Reminds me of the infantile Harley mindset & the V-Twin's miserable "sound". The BMW "sound" is better IMO.

I've been expecting the future to arrive & look forward to electric cars that are virtually silent.

If you'd like, I'd make an inquiry w/my local FORD dealer on your behalf, about the mysterious valve on the MC?

 

Bloddy h###

I have found the fault now !

the pri. outlet isnt in center in the new master cylinder

as for the old one its in center

this causes the flimsy plastic thing to bent , crash or what ever, and this is causing the fluid not to return as the brake is relished

God d#### , now I have left the front brakes on the pri. outlet and took the restriction out of the valve untill I have found a new one

tried it with the plastic away but with the internal still there , and there isnt enough braking power in front to block the brakes ! this is caused by a very tiny hole inside the valve !

with this out it is certainly improved in braking power !

Sincerly

JCBX

 

JCBX,

I saw your pics in the first post and I am wondering what metal your brake lines are made of. It appears to be copper???? This is not good if that is the case. ( EXTREMELY DANGEROUS ) It sounds to me as if your van needs profesional diagnosis and repair. The liabilities of you fixing this are too great. Both for you and others on the road.

John