[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-Nov-02 AT 07:40 PM (EST)]Hey Guys
I have a 77 f-150 w/400. Iam looking at buying a 4bbl intake and carb. Which of these do you guys think is the best?
Holley Street Dominator 351m/400
Edelbrock SP2P 351m/400
Edelbrock Performer intake 351m/400
I am just looking for a little more power than i get with the 2bbl. Seems kinda stupid to have 2bbl on such a big engine.
One more thing. If i go with non-EGR is ther anything that i have to change?
Thanks
David

 

Edelbrock Performer or Weiand.

Use the EGR if you can. If it is operating properly it does not reduce power but reduces NOx emissions.

Edelbrock 1406 600cfm elctric choke for a street vehicle.
Use the Holley if you are into racing at the track every weekend.


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[updated:LAST EDITED ON 20-Nov-02 AT 09:09 AM (EST)]Thanks. Is there anything i have to change if i go woith non-egr? Also id the Edlebrock sp2p any good?
Thanks Again
DAvid

 

>Thanks. Is there anything i have to change if i go woith
>non-egr? Also id the Edlebrock sp2p any good?
>Thanks Again
>DAvid

I think you'll be disappointed with the E'brock SP2P. It has very small intake runners and was never designed as a performance intake. The E'brock Performer is a better choice but the non-EGR version has a very narrow carb mounting flange which makes it hard to get a good seal and contributes to vaccuum leaks. The E'brock Performer 400 EGR has a much wider carb mounting flange and since EGR has basically no adverse effects on performance particularly in an engine designed to use EGR, is a better choice. If you're going to go with a non-EGR intake I've heard good things about the Weiand Stealth.

 

I highly recomend using an EGR intake- You'll want to shoot yourself later over the detonation with a non-EGR. I like the Eddy Performer intakes myself, maybe just personal preference, but one of my friends has one on a 400. It has impressive power. Ditto on the Holley vs Eddy comments, plus, get the Edelbrock carb if you don't want to fine tune a carb every time you fill up at a different gas station.

Jared

 

Why would a non-EGR manifold be more likely to detonate than an EGR manifold? The EGR recirculates exhaust gas into the intake manifold, and who wants that warming up that nice, fairly cool, fresh charge of fuel and air?!

 

Remember what the EGR does?

EGR stands for Exhaust Gas Recirculation. Sounds strange, but we put some hot exhaust gas back into the combustion chamber and it cools the combustion because the same stuff can't burn all over again. And cooling the combustion down keeps our NOx emissions down. Very effective. The only problem is too much at the wrong time makes the engine run poorly, so we have to carefully regulate it. We don't need EGR at idle, there's not enough heat there to cause much NOx. (Unless you are a diesel engine, but we're not talking diesel here.) We don't need EGR when the engine is cold, this lowers the NOx we put out. Under full acceleration, EGR would limit your power, and the Federal test procedures that test a vehicle emissions let you get away with not being tested under full power, so we don't have to turn on EGR then either. (Although we do create a lot of NOx under power.) We only need EGR during light to medium cruising. That's where we spend most of our time driving so that's when we put out the most NOx emissions.

 

I had looked at buying an intake before but didnt want to spend the money. Then someone suggested looking on ebay. I have seen quite a few but none are egr all seem to be non-egr. so i have to decide what to do.
Thanks for the info.
David

 

OK, guys, I have to respectfully disagree with some of the things on this thread.

First off, I agree completely with the suggestions to get an EGR-compatible manifold. The only ones now in production for M-blocks are the Edelbrock Performer 400 EGR (#3771) and the Weiand Stealth w/EGR (#8310). When it comes to manifold choice, I think it is foolhardy to even consider a non-EGR manifold, unless you are building a 100% dedicated off-road, non-street-legal machine.

The reason to buy an EGR manifold is simple, even if you never want to use EGR. If you live in a place with no emission testing now, you never know when you might have to move to a place that has testing, or the local authorities where you live now might start it. Also, if you (or your heirs) ever want to sell the vehicle, emissions legality (including an EGR manifold) makes it a lot easier to sell and increases the market value. Don't believe me? Look at the ratio of used non-EGR to EGR manifolds for sale on eBay.

Now, all that said, I disagree with the assertions that EGR does not reduce power or affect performance. It seems obvious that displacing a significant amount of the intake charge (i.e., fuel/air mixture) with "inert" gas reduces the power output. Indeed, with EGR displacing up to 15% of the intake charge, it renders the 400 about as effective as a 350 ci engine without EGR.

As for the NOx issue, remember the history of emissions control devices. Both AIR (air injection reaction) and EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) were developed and implemented before the catalytic converter.

The first step to reduce CO and HC emissions was leaning fuel/air ratios and installing smog pumps (AIR). That started in the late '60s in California. Though it was effective at reducing CO and HC emissions, the downside was increased NOx emissions caused by higher combustion temperatures. To solve the NOx emissions problem, EGR was introduced in the early '70s in California.

To reduce emissions further, all 1975 model year light-duty vehicles (under 6500 lbs GVW) sold in the US were equipped with an exhaust gas catalytic converter, and unleaded fuel was mandatory for those vehicles. The 2-way (old style) catalytic converter works by taking advantage of the free O2 introduced into the exhaust gas stream by the AIR pump to catalyze CO and HC emissions into CO2 and H2O.

Now, here's the rub with EGR. The combination of AIR and catalytic converter is so effective at reducing CO and HC emissions that the mixture can be enriched way beyond the level required to meet emissions limits otherwise. Remember, we're talking about emissions limits for 20+year-old vehicles here. (I'm sure auto manufacturers took advantage of this excess capacity to allow more tolerance of the typically poor maintenance of the fuel system among the majority of the driving public.)

Indeed, with a properly functioning AIR system and catalytic converter, the fuel/air mixture can be enriched to the point of providing a significant performance improvement, as well as lowering combustion temps and reducing NOx formation (obviating the need for EGR), and reducing the pinging that our engines are notorious for.

In my opinion, EGR is the most intrusive emissions control device on our engines. Among the three systems (AIR, EGR, and catalyst), it is the only one that really hurts performance.

 

I greatly appreciate all of the inout guys. If I buy a knwe intake i will probably get a non-EGR simly because that is all that is on ebay and i dont want to spend the money on a brand knwe one. With the info you guys gave my I know which two i should consider.
Thanks again.
David

 

>In my opinion, EGR is the most intrusive emissions control
>device on our engines. Among the three systems (AIR, EGR,
>and catalyst), it is the only one that really hurts
>performance.

Hmm...OK I was with ya up until this last part Bubba. EGR may very well be more of a power robber than I originally thought but if the engine is designed with it in mind then it shouldn't be that hateful. Now the AIR system OTOH requires a pump which is driven off of the crank via belt, that's gotta take a some horses away and it's common knowledge that cat convertors are huge restrictions in the exhaust system which robs HP unless you pop for one of the aftermarket high flow models.

 

Bill,

Power lost to the Thermactor (smog) pump is insignificant. The pump itself takes about 0.25 hp, the system is perhaps up to 0.5-1.0 hp by the time you count the friction of the drive belt/pulley system along with it.

As for the cat, I wouldn't rebuild an exhaust system without replacing the (surely defective by now) OEM unit with a high-flow cat. The cost difference between a new restrictive OEM cat and a high-flow cat is small. And a 3" in/out high-flow cat will out-flow any muffler you can buy. So no power is lost there either, even on a single-cat system. (We're talking about sub-Shazam levels of power, of course.)

The fundamental problem with EGR is that it displaces fuel/air mixture in the intake charge. No matter how you cut it, reducing the quantity of fuel/air reduces power. You could think of it as a "negative" supercharger.

Since the M-block was designed in the late 1960s, it's unlikely that it was designed with EGR in mind. As far as I know, the only components specific to EGR were the intake manifolds (just a hole drilled through one side of the carb flange into the exhaust crossover) and the EGR spacer under the carb. Most of the "design" for EGR was in the engine's calibration, especially the over-lean fuel/air mixture.

On a basically stock 351M engine, with a properly functioning Thermactor AIR system and catalytic converter, my emissions test results are much cleaner with richer main jets in the carb and disabled EGR than they were with the original over-lean main jets and a properly functioning EGR system. Power and driveability are vastly improved also.

 

Sorry to bring this up again but has anyone tried or know anything about the Edelbrock streetmaster?
Thanks
David

 

your manifold choices pretty much cover the spectrum,economy to race.what is the intended use?efficient high miler w/juevos? i saw an offy dual port on e bay.search parts/accs "offenhauser"or "offy"and also"351"and "400"in titles only

 

A Weiand is likely the best dual plane for a 400. The Edelbrocks have smaller ports.

The Offy 360 dual port was good in theory, it seperated the primary and secondary carb venturies with 2 smaller ports, but did not perform very well.

The other Offy 360 had a plenum divider but no port divider. Basically it was like a single plane torquer style intake with the left and right banks seperated so it performed more like a dual plane.

351C intakes can be used with port adapters.