Hi guys,
My truck is currently in the shop with the heads off for a valve job/head gasket replacement. As near as I can tell the engine has about 220,000 on it. There was no definate noise coming from lifters before teardown, but I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to replace them anyhow. How long do lifters go without wear. I had several valves leaking and the head gasket was leaking also, so it was hard to distinguish between noises. What do ya think.?
Tony

 

Lifters are cheap and you already have the engine apart why not this would also be a good time to check the cam, to make sure none of the lobes are wearing funny or wearing flat. It would be a shame if you did not and the lifters started sticking and or ticking then you will have to tear it down again. Eric

 

You MUST replace lifters and cam shaft at the same time. Replace just one and you'll "wipe out" the other.

Nathan

 

You can do new lifters on old cam, just not the opposite. The lifter has a crown on the end that rides on the cam and develops a wear pattern to conform with the cam. A new cam will not match the pattern on old lifters, but new lifters will just develop the wear pattern just like normal.

But since you got it down this far, why not go ahead and put in a aftermarket cam. They ain't but about 100 dollars for cam/lifter sets. 220k is time for a new timing chain as well so you have a reason to tear into the front cover.

chris
79 F-150 Ranger Lariat, 2wd, RC, LB, 460 (intake, headers, cam), C-6(shift kit).

79 mustang (work in progress...its just slow progress)
98 Chevy 4x4 (work truck)
95 Lexus SC300 (wife's baby)

 

I concur. For the money you'd spend now on a new cam and timing set while the engine is apart, I'd do it.. Call it "preventative upgrading." hehehe

And that is correct, you can replace lifters on an old cam. The lobes on the cam, if still in good condition, will wear the lifters just like they did when it was put in.
Have fun!!
J/.c

1965 Ford Galaxie 500 (okay, so not quite a truck)
ANOTHER 460/C6 @ 365hp/519 lb.ft.
14.36@100.4, 16-18 mpg AHHAAAHAAAHAAA!

 

I would say it is DEFINITELY a good idea. Cam, lifters, timing chain, and you may want to have the springs within the distributor checked since you have to remove it anyway to replace the cam. Also, how do the tops of the pistons look and cylinder walls. Furthermore, I would just like to add that by having a valve job and new head gasket and such, you may experience alot more blow-by now that the upperend will sealing properly. Really no way to prevent that other than hope the rings are still seating good and that it won't happen.

TBirdGuy

"Stuck with a m*par, Settle for a ch*vy, Happy with a Ford!!!!"

 

I think that doing a valve job and head gaskets on an engine with 220K without touching the bottom end is asking for a world of trouble. That top end is going to be nice & tight and when you start building more compression in the top end it's going to blow right past those worn rings, pressurize the crankcase and blow oil out the PCV and the dipstick tube. I think that any shop that performs that kind of repair is definitely in the "fly-by-night" category. Just my $.02...

 

On the other hand, Bill, and not to disagree with you.. I think that anytime one can afford to have a bottom end done, it should be.. but on my last engine, I did the exact same thing.. replaced the bottom end, and something wasnt right in it, and I threw a rod after 2 road miles. Proceeded to pull another junkyard motor, fix up the top end, and since it had good compression, etc, left it alone after that. Now, after another 15k miles, runs like a top..
Like I said, not to disagree, but if money's tight, leave it well enough alone if it aint broke already.. sometimes trying to do something the "right way" ends up being more problems than it would be worth..
Of course, keep that fact in mind, that the engine DOES have high miles on the bottom end.. and be prepared still to have it redone soon enough here.
Best of luck to y'all.

J/.c

1965 Ford Galaxie 500 (okay, so not quite a truck)
ANOTHER 460/C6 @ 365hp/519 lb.ft.
14.36@100.4, 16-18 mpg AHHAAAHAAAHAAA!

 

Sure there are times when a valve job alone is a legitimate repair, like when an engine has 50K-75K on it and the rings aren't as worn. I think anything over 100K should at least have new rings and bearings put in if you're doing the top end and an engine with over 200K needs a complete overhaul. Having said that he might be OK with just a valve job. For sure he's going to have significantly more blowby and I hope the PCV system is up to the task or he will be puking oil out the dipstick tube.

 

I agree with Bill. At 220k miles, it'll take some extraordinary luck for the rings to retain their wall tension with a fresh valve job.

 

I would just say, inspect the cylinder walls. If the motor has been taken care of then the cylinder walls and rings will still be in decent condition. That's why I said earlier to just check the cylinder walls. I've seen a few motors that were disassembled after 200K+ (blown headgasket) that you could still see the cross-hatches from the previous rebuild.

TBirdGuy

"Stuck with a m*par, Settle for a ch*vy, Happy with a Ford!!!!"

 

TonyG.
more advice than you planned huh? God I love this site. Anyhow what did you end up deciding?


chris
79 F-150 Ranger Lariat, 2wd, RC, LB, 460 (intake, headers, cam), C-6(shift kit).

79 mustang (work in progress...its just slow progress)
98 Chevy 4x4 (work truck)
95 Lexus SC300 (wife's baby)

 

Ok,
Sorry for the late reply, I thought I had clicked to recieve email when a poster responded to this question, but maybe I didn't. Am happily surprised with the input. It's been about 2 weeks. After we got the heads to the machine shop, he discovered that the intake port on one head was cracked and the ohter head had oversized valves put in at one time and no valve guides. So both heads where scrap. After shippping delays, and $460 later, the remanned heads where ready to put in. I pulled two of the lifters and it showed minor scratching and slight (very slight) wear, so I decided that for the extra $100, these lifters would last as long as the bearings and rings. However, the pushrods showed some wear and even one was mushroomed, so we replaced them.

I'm responding in this post because what you say is true or seems to be true. The engine was overheated about 30,000 miles ago. (I put 60,000 miles on last year) The overheating happened because of the thermo-fan failure. The overheating probably damaged the rings. After the heads and engine was finished, I went on a 600 mile trip. Bout halfway through the oil pan gasket started to leak. It was seeping before, so it was probably the weak link in the crankcase. One or two connecting rod bearings are also making more noise than they did before. Oil pressure stayed where it was before the rebuild (which is low, but steady and not falling). There is not a significant increase in power, but there is some. I'm able to pull most highway hills in overdrive while pulling about 4500 lbs in a trailer.

On the garage's defense, they strongly advised against not rebuilding the whole engine, but I convinced them that it was possibly just a head gasket problem as my blowby was minimal with little or no blue smoke.

I checked the blowby while midway on the trip and I'd say there is even less than befor at idle and while revving the engine.

The conclusion: I had wanted to stay away from pulling the engine because of the added expense of a new clutch (it has about 80,000) and the engine work itself. I have talked with a local machine shop who has a spare 460 block from a 84 truck that is rebuildable. I'm going to replace the oil pan gasket today or tomorrow and see how it runs. With the connecting rod bearings making lot's of noise, I don't think the bottom end will last long. With $1100 in the head job, I would have been further ahead to redo the whole engine right away. But this shop charges $2.50 for a qt of oil and $7 for a fram filter and won't allow me to supply any parts. So, I'll probably get the work done elsewhere. I depend on the truck for work, so I was hoping to not have the truck off the road longer than needed. As it was it was off the road for 2 full weeks.

Thanks for the comments. As it was, I think the cam and lifters are ok, but other parts of the engine might not be.

Tony

 

When we had the heads off, I checked over the cylinder walls. I could find almost no ridge at the top of the cylinder where the rings stop. I had told the shop that if there was any cracks in the block or if the cylinder walls had significant wear, we would just give Jasper a quick call. It seems that the cylinder walls are ok, but I can't be sure about the rings, and I know the connecting rod bearings are pretty loose. The timeing chain was probably replaced before.... somewhere around 120,00 but had some wear (according to one mechanic) It will last the remainder of the bearings life. With that said, I have no way of telling weather this truck has 220,000 or 320,000. The fellow I bought it from said it was used on a farm and had done some towing. So it's possible that it was just 147,00 when I bought it. It's a strange and unique truck as it has the Dana 60 removed and a '95 Dana 50 in the front end. Thanks again for all the comments. I'll have more questions.

P.S. While talking about the truck and it's problems to a fellow in northeastern ohio, he mentioned that HE had a truck to sell me...(I was asking for a motor) '87 460 dually Crew Cab, 4 speed with a 4.11 limited slip. The engine is completely redone with less than 5000 miles on it. He says 8-9 mpg. He also says, it does about 65 mph top speed. Does anyone have this combo and can you tell me what the RPM's are at 65? It seems like it should do at least 75 without overrevving the motor.

I have some thoughts about buying his truck and using it for long distance towing and swapping my 5 speed and maybe sometime a 2 speed gear vender in it and also putting his 4 speed in my current truck.

What are anyones opinion about limited slip vs. 4X4.
Thanks,
Tony

 

With a dually 2wd you don't get much traction at all. My brother drives a 2000 F350 dually 2wd, l.s. And it gets stuck in wet grass with out a heavy load in it.

Not a bad idea swapping your 5speed though. Or if you like your truck just swap that motor in. Should be able to swap in a complete motor in a day.

chris
79 F-150 Ranger Lariat, 2wd, RC, LB, 460 (intake, headers, cam), C-6(shift kit).

79 mustang (work in progress...its just slow progress)
98 Chevy 4x4 (work truck)
95 Lexus SC300 (wife's baby)