Ok guys, here it is, I got to ask people that actually tow something about this. I tow and have towed for about 20+ years. I am currently is an argument, if you want to call it that, about a truck with built in sway control. Please correct me if I am wrong, there is no way possible for a truck to control trailer sway, yes or no. I say no but there are people jumping up and down that there will be a truck that can control trailer sway with no weight distribution hitch and no sway control other than the truck.
Sway is caused by light tounge weight or an off balanced trailer. It can also be caused by cross winds, semi's passing, or an out of alignment issue. How on earth can a truck towing a trailer know how every different type of trailer is going to act going down the road? Better yet, how can a truck compensate for trailer sway? I don't see how this is even possible considering that all trailer sway control devices hook to the trailer tounge. Am I losing my mind? Did I miss a memo? Help a bother out!

 

well i think your right! i tow With Out a sway bar! thats a add on!

 

The truck (new 150) can use ABS sensors and yaw to measure how the vehicle is reacting and apply less power to wheels, brake individual wheels ect. See reference to 2009 F150 and read about its towing package. Electronics are taking over the world. No need to react.

 

I tried to explain that in the 2009 forum, but he refuses to see my point.

 

it is not a sway control. it will help stop the trailer from swaying by applying the brakes on the trailer. you still need a sway control. the truck just helps. if you tow with out a sway control w/ 2009 f150 then your trailer brakes will wear soon. it is a safety feature that will help keep it from getting out of control, but will not stop it.

 

I've spent the last 10+ years of my life talking about sway control so I'll chime in here. You have hit on a conversation I've had for years. It goes something like,

"I have a big truck so I don't need sway control."

I reply, "how does the truck stop the trailer for swaying?"

Pause.

The trailer is a separate vehicle from the truck. Even if the truck is large enough to not feel the trailer swaying, it can and will still sway. This is called "seat-of-the-pants" sway control. Once the trailer sway is violent enough to affect the truck it will if the trailer is large enough in mass to overcome the truck.

Once a person realizes that the trailer is independently pivoting on a ball behind your bumper they can see that a trailer will sway.

There are a few different types of sway control available and the vehicle manufacturers are coming out with the brake pulsing sway control to attempt to damp the sway once it begins. In my book it is still to be determined if they will work effectively or just cause even more braking problems than most trailers already have.

The most common, and least expensive, sway control is friction based which uses the friction force in the hitch to damp the sway. This type is effective until the sway force becomes greater than the friction force.

The most effective sway "control" hitch eliminates sway before the sway angles start to oscillate. I have sold this type of hitch for 10+ years. First as the Vice President of Hensley Mfg. and now as my own company, ProPride, Inc.

This type of hitch is a "Pivot Point Projection (tm)"
design which projects the effective pivot point of the trailer and reduces the lever arm created between the trailer coupler and the rear axle of the tow vehicle. By reducing that lever arm, forces on the side of the trailer have less effect on the tow vehicle so the driver doesn't have to attempt to steer out of a sway situation (which only makes it worse.)

Anyway, I think you are right on with taking the position that the truck does not control sway. Trailer sway is independent of the truck. As noted, there are many factors such as speed, loading, uneven roads, winds, and large trucks passing that can upset the trailer from towing true on the centerline of the combo and create a sway angle.

 

The truck can not independantly control sway. It can help through a pivot/spring based drawbar (ancient technology that isn't very good), through new hitches which stiffen the connection and add resistance to sway (either some of the horribly expensive hitches, or the simpler add-on sway control), or through new technology that balances the truck's reaction to the trailer's sway (the 2009 F150). All of those things HELP with sway and try to react to it better or try to minimize it, but the ONLY way to ELIMINATE sway is to eliminate the behind-the-axis pivot point. Only a gooseneck/fifth wheel can do that without eliminating the trailer completely. Sway will always be there. You can minimize it with a large truck (more mass takes more effort to swing) or through an active system (which tries to make the truck's mass react more predictably) or through stiffening the pivot point (the add on sway bars).

 

Nathan, please take a look at a 3P, Pivot Point Projection hitch and you'll see that the gooseneck/fifth wheel isn't the only way. The effective pivot point of a trailer equpped with a 3P and the gooseneck/fifth wheel are very near the exact same spot. The 3P pivot point is 52" forward of the trailer coupler.

 

Looks to me you are just stiffening the joint again. You can't physically move the pivot point, all you are doing is making it more difficult to wiggle. I'd have to speak to my engineer father though to go through the details

52" is much farther than MY gooseneck is attached... then you have the opposite problem, the truck wagging the trailer.

 

Does the 2009 F150 have a built in brake controller that is tied into the electronics and can AUTOMATICALLY and INDEPENDENTLY apply the trailer brakes when it senses 'sway'?

I guess if someone had such a LARGE TV in comparison to the TT...well mass DOES rule in this game...but I'm with Sean...a TV in its traditional sense does not have sway control built in...I'd say perhaps the TV mfgs are making the TV's more 'stable' thru electronically controlled stability control...but how does that stop an independent mass coupled by a multi-degree of freedom ball (i.e. the TT)?

A 'properly' balance ball pulled trailer will not sway just tooling down the road...some OUTSIDE input must act on it..and I'll contend that if the new F150 does not have a fully integrated and synchronous brake controller...when driving down the road and the TV starts applying individual brakes and starts slowing the TV on its OWN...that puts the ball coupler in COMPRESSION vs TENSION...a ball pulled TT with its ball in COMPRESSION...is RIPE for SWAY...it is imperative that the ball coupler STAY IN TENSION for STABILITY. Allow 'float'...and LOOK OUT.

Now I pull with a competitor to Sean's NEW company...(I'd go with his hitch if I were in the market today!) these types of hitches are far superior in the way they control sway. It uses geometry thru the linkage to 'project' the pivot point to the rear axle and make it stable like a 5'r or gooseneck with the pin weight AT the rear axle. Think about where the axle is compared to the BALL COUPLER...that 52" isn't far off of most SUV's or Vans or Pickups...the ball mount sticks out an easy foot from the receiver and the axle is easily 3' from the rear of the vehicle.

As a side note...with these types of pivot point projection hitches...having a TV slow ITSELF without activating the trailer brakes ... IS A BAD THING...I hope if the F150 does this...it has an integrated brake controller that is SYNCHRONOUS with the TRAILER BRAKES...let's just leave it at that...

So my answer is in line with Seans...a TRUCK does not have 'built in' sway control...unless it has an INTEGRATED and SYNCHRONOUS TRAILER BRAKE CONTOLLER that is...than I may hedge my answer as a method of controlling / damping sway is MANUAL application of TT brakes ONLY...if the TRUCK was that SMART...well...it would likely have a scanning red light in the grille too though...LOL

joe.

 

I guess if you can send me a link to your explaination...that may help...but right now...I'm with the OP until I'm convinced...sorry...

joe.

 

It doesn't physically move the pivot point, it moves the virtual pivot point much farther forward. Check with your engineer father. It's a valid concept that works quite well.

 

LXMan1,

I found the thread you were referring to and I posted a response over there.

I think Ford is 'attempting' to do good things...as I said over there...in the 2009 forum...I'm not so sure though how much is 'real' vs 'marketing' at this point though...I have high hopes that some of it is REAL.

joe.

 

Wow, I'm probably crazy to get in the middle of this one. But what the heck, here goes.


To say that a truck cannot affect trailer sway is just silly. If you've ever been in a sway situation, you know that pressing your truck brake can make it worse and is the worst thing you can do. Especially if you have a trailer that does not have it's own brakes. On the other hand, when you feel sway start, you can press the manual lever on your trailer brake controller, to apply just the trailer brakes, and pull that trailer right back into line. Accelerating when you feel sway will usually also control it, but it's not always safe to do that, like on a down grade. Downgrades are the mostly common place for sway to happen. So, obviously the truck and the driver can contribute to, and stop, trailer sway.

The only question really is whether the truck can SENSE sway. I guess that involves an inertial gyro of some kind. Probably just like is used in a Prodigy brake control. The simplest logic would be to engage the trailer brakes when sway is sensed, but it's probably going to be more complex than that.

And yes, I believe that sway control will only be available on trucks with the integrated factory brake controller.

Bill

 

Welcome to the ASYLUM!!!

You know I've done some thinking on this...

I guess it comes down to this...in the Ford literature...they 'claim' built in sway control...which I DISAGREE with that terminology.

That 'can' lead innocent consumers to believe they can tow massive trailers with OUT proper sway control.

Thinking that an automated BRAKE CONTROL SYSTEM can effectively CONTROL sway...

Here's the text from the 2009 F150 link

Trailer sway control works in conjunction with AdvanceTrac® with RSC® and can determine from the yaw motion of the truck if the trailer is swaying and take measures – such as applying precise braking or reduced engine torque – to bring both vehicle and trailer under control.
Integrated Trailer Brake Controller is factory-installed and allows direct operation of the trailer’s electronic brakes by squeezing the control module on the instrument panel with more confidence than the typical aftermarket system.

I for one would NOT tow with OUT independent sway control...I choose the HA when I upgraded my sway control...the DC, Equal-I-Zer, HA or ProPride are all fine choices (the latter two are in a league by themselves though)...

To 'believe' the words in this Ford marketing literature is a 'replacement' for TRUE INDEPENDENT SWAY CONTROL appears to be the argument here...I for one do NOT believe BRAKING ONLY is an effective means of controlling sway...but that's just my opinion...

BTW...the link to this data is https://www.ford-trucks.com/article/..._Features.html

joe.