b-20
Lead Driver
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Hartford, WI
Originally Posted by white Buffalo
It's not the added lubricity that makes the engine run quieter, but when you run bio diesel you can definitely hear the difference in the sound of the engine. Less cackle or something.
Anyhow, biodiesel (as low as 2%) adds lubricity to diesel fuel and test results have shown it to reduce the wear scar below 460 microns and protect the injectors & fuel system.
The issue at hand is the new ULSD and how it is drier than LSD. They are supposed to add lubrication additives at the terminal or jobber (since it is not being done at the refinery) to bring the fuel up to the federal standard. The bottom line is if you do not get the proper lubrication you will increase the wear in your fuel system and injectors. Biodiesel and/or diesel additives is needed to protect your equipment.
Anyhow, biodiesel (as low as 2%) adds lubricity to diesel fuel and test results have shown it to reduce the wear scar below 460 microns and protect the injectors & fuel system.
The issue at hand is the new ULSD and how it is drier than LSD. They are supposed to add lubrication additives at the terminal or jobber (since it is not being done at the refinery) to bring the fuel up to the federal standard. The bottom line is if you do not get the proper lubrication you will increase the wear in your fuel system and injectors. Biodiesel and/or diesel additives is needed to protect your equipment.
I think I mentioned somewhere before that all those tests do is allude to the idea "more is better". Is 460 microns going to contribute to the engine life significantly? How about 400? 350? I'd like to see data that shows how much lubricity does what. IOW, I would like to know where the point of deminishing returns occur. Is it at 500? 400? 300? Again, nobody seems to know. When they say it protects the fuel system, do they say how significant it is? If it gives me 500 more miles, do I care?
IIRC, it is at terminal level. Granted when they started out, as all things do, they have problems. However, I think by now it should have stabilized. Now if they did random samplings all over the country and showed that the levels are not being met, I would be concerned.
Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Sioux Falls, SD
Originally Posted by aklim
I heard it when I added B20 but never really made much of a difference to me. I think the regulated return made it quieter than any bio could do. Either way, it isn't that significant to me.
I think I mentioned somewhere before that all those tests do is allude to the idea "more is better". Is 460 microns going to contribute to the engine life significantly? How about 400? 350? I'd like to see data that shows how much lubricity does what. IOW, I would like to know where the point of deminishing returns occur. Is it at 500? 400? 300? Again, nobody seems to know. When they say it protects the fuel system, do they say how significant it is? If it gives me 500 more miles, do I care?
IIRC, it is at terminal level. Granted when they started out, as all things do, they have problems. However, I think by now it should have stabilized. Now if they did random samplings all over the country and showed that the levels are not being met, I would be concerned.
I think I mentioned somewhere before that all those tests do is allude to the idea "more is better". Is 460 microns going to contribute to the engine life significantly? How about 400? 350? I'd like to see data that shows how much lubricity does what. IOW, I would like to know where the point of deminishing returns occur. Is it at 500? 400? 300? Again, nobody seems to know. When they say it protects the fuel system, do they say how significant it is? If it gives me 500 more miles, do I care?
IIRC, it is at terminal level. Granted when they started out, as all things do, they have problems. However, I think by now it should have stabilized. Now if they did random samplings all over the country and showed that the levels are not being met, I would be concerned.
There are a couple of sponsors on here that started selling a heck of alot more fuel pumps since the ULSD came out, mostly for Dodge's IIRC. Just ask the injector rebuild guys like Beans or Swamps - they will tell you.
Last edited by white Buffalo; Jan 13, 2008 at 11:26 PM.
Lead Driver
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Hartford, WI
Originally Posted by white Buffalo
I'll try to find the report but they are doing ramdom sampling (I think it is the American Trucker Assoc.) and some samples have not met the standard.
520 is the federal standard and 460 is what the engine manufactures want it to be. So if the OEM's want it to be lower than the federal standard what does that say?
520 is the federal standard and 460 is what the engine manufactures want it to be. So if the OEM's want it to be lower than the federal standard what does that say?
Don't know what it says. To OEM, if they get 1000 miles more out of an engine, it is 1000 miles closer to the end of warranty. On their scale, it might make a difference. To me, I wouldn't care. If the warranty is 100K, anything bringing the truck past that is good. Every truck past 100K means 1 warranty less. On a manufacturer's scale, it makes a difference. On my scale, I probably don't care that I got 1000 miles more than without additives. That is why I say that all the tests allude to is "Lubricity is good. More is better." Also, without knowing for sure, how much more mileage it gives, how do I calculate the cost of additives? IOW, if it gives 1000 miles more and I put in $2000 of additives, have I gained much? Bio, depending on where you are, might be advailable for the same price as D2. Additives are on your dime. So yes, if I were an engine manufacturer, I'd want you to to as low on the scale as possible. Every mile you get more brings you closer to the warranty termination. If you get 99900 miles, you are still under warranty. So, if that lubricity gets you 200 miles more, you bet it is worth it to me since you paid for the additives and I reap the benefits.
Last edited by aklim; Jan 13, 2008 at 11:39 PM.
Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Sioux Falls, SD
Originally Posted by aklim
That is to be expected. Expected but not tolerated. Fine those guys.
Don't know what it says. To OEM, if they get 1000 miles more out of an engine, it is 1000 miles closer to the end of warranty. On their scale, it might make a difference. To me, I wouldn't care. If the warranty is 100K, anything bringing the truck past that is good. Every truck past 100K means 1 warranty less. On a manufacturer's scale, it makes a difference. On my scale, I probably don't care that I got 1000 miles more than without additives. That is why I say that all the tests allude to is "Lubricity is good. More is better." Also, without knowing for sure, how much more mileage it gives, how do I calculate the cost of additives? IOW, if it gives 1000 miles more and I put in $2000 of additives, have I gained much?
Don't know what it says. To OEM, if they get 1000 miles more out of an engine, it is 1000 miles closer to the end of warranty. On their scale, it might make a difference. To me, I wouldn't care. If the warranty is 100K, anything bringing the truck past that is good. Every truck past 100K means 1 warranty less. On a manufacturer's scale, it makes a difference. On my scale, I probably don't care that I got 1000 miles more than without additives. That is why I say that all the tests allude to is "Lubricity is good. More is better." Also, without knowing for sure, how much more mileage it gives, how do I calculate the cost of additives? IOW, if it gives 1000 miles more and I put in $2000 of additives, have I gained much?
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/6...ity-study.html
The folks at diesel place did a good job with this report. Not only did they show the benefits/problems of each additive, they also included the per tank cost for each additive.
Yes, you are right - there are so many scams out there that it is hard to tell the difference between BS and truth. Like anything else, the more you dig - the more the truth is revealed.
Lead Driver
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,308
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From: Hartford, WI
Originally Posted by white Buffalo
The folks at diesel place did a good job with this report. Not only did they show the benefits/problems of each additive, they also included the per tank cost for each additive.
Yes, you are right - there are so many scams out there that it is hard to tell the difference between BS and truth. Like anything else, the more you dig - the more the truth is revealed.
Yes, you are right - there are so many scams out there that it is hard to tell the difference between BS and truth. Like anything else, the more you dig - the more the truth is revealed.
With all the scams out there, I find it best to remain skeptical first. According to that chart, you can see that a lot of lubricity agents actually seem to hurt it as opposed to helping it.
FTE Chapter Leader
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Henderson, NV
Originally Posted by mndiesel
Dan you use b20 to tow with? Do you use a additive or does it have enough in it already? Can you explain what you meant by "best of both worlds". I been thinking about b-20 but couldn't find enough info about towing. Can you also run one tank of diesel then b20 then diesel again without screwing anything up. Just curious not sure if in my travels that b20 will be available everywhere. Thanks
Whereabouts in MN are you? There are quite a few stations that sell bio all the way to B100. It's just my luck none of them are in the Twin Cities.
Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Sioux Falls, SD
Originally Posted by aklim
With all the scams out there, I find it best to remain skeptical first. According to that chart, you can see that a lot of lubricity agents actually seem to hurt it as opposed to helping it.
Senior User
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 348
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From: Memphis, TN
Just FYI on the idea of keeping a fuel filter handy. It is a good idea to check after a tank or two of Bio (especially B20 or higher) BUT....my truck has 200k on it. When I dropped my tank for the ITP in-tank kit I was absolutely positively amazed how clean that tank was. I guess the lines etc..might have some gunk in them that will be purged by the B20 I'm running....but the tank was spotless. Just my 2 cents.
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Brett Foote
Lead Driver
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Hartford, WI
Originally Posted by white Buffalo
I was surprised at some of the products performance, especially Lucas and Marvels Mystery Oil. Thought that they would do better than that. But they are still making millions selling the stuff!
Lead Driver
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Hartford, WI
Originally Posted by FordTruckNoob
Just FYI, all our diesel here in MN has to have at least 2% bio in it by law. I noticed my tank was clean as a whistle when I dropped it to do my in-tank pump mod.
Elder User
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Tennessee
Originally Posted by Kwikkordead
B20 is all I ever use anymore. It's the best of both worlds, IMO.
If for some reason I can't find a B20 pump, I just cut the remaining bio in my tank with enough D2 to get me to another B20 pump....so I'm still running a blend.
By the way.... I've posted this in other threads before, but I think it bears repeating.... I noticed an additional drop in EGTs of about 50 - 75* once I made the switch to B20, and that applies to towing as well as empty. I made the change to B20 after I'd installed the 5' exhaust, so I had a point of reference in the EGTs I expected to see across different scenarios.
The last camping trip of the fall I nailed the accellerator towing the camper up the side of a mountain, and I just barely got it to 1100*.
That's pretty cool...
Lead Driver
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Hartford, WI
Originally Posted by MikeSDK
I noticed an additional drop in EGTs of about 50 - 75* once I made the switch to B20,
Elder User
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From: Tennessee
Originally Posted by aklim
But why though? Could it be that it doesn't have as much energy? After all, they do say that bio has less BTUs than D2.
The two best explanations I've gotten are:
A) Fewer BTUs, so it burns a little cooler, or
B) It burns more completely than dino, with less 'residue', etc that has to be burned off, and is thus cooler.
(I'm not sure if I understand the science behind that second one, but it's in another thread around somewhere..I'll hunt it down if you are interested)
A side effect may well be that there is a slight power loss, but if there is,
it is not noticeable to me (at least in my experience).
Logistics Pro
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: Morgan Hill, CA
In 2007 I used about 90% less #2 than in 2006. That's because I ran B99 about 90% of the time. Go farmers!
The only problems I have had are the 30R7 hoses I installed at one point developed pin holes and the fuel filters seem to clog about twice as often on the B99.
My tank was spotless at 125K or so when I did my tank mods too!
The only problems I have had are the 30R7 hoses I installed at one point developed pin holes and the fuel filters seem to clog about twice as often on the B99.
My tank was spotless at 125K or so when I did my tank mods too!
Lead Driver
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Hartford, WI
Originally Posted by MikeSDK
I have to admit, I'm not sure why it is.
The two best explanations I've gotten are:
A) Fewer BTUs, so it burns a little cooler, or
B) It burns more completely than dino, with less 'residue', etc that has to be burned off, and is thus cooler.
(I'm not sure if I understand the science behind that second one, but it's in another thread around somewhere..I'll hunt it down if you are interested)
A side effect may well be that there is a slight power loss, but if there is,
it is not noticeable to me (at least in my experience).
The two best explanations I've gotten are:
A) Fewer BTUs, so it burns a little cooler, or
B) It burns more completely than dino, with less 'residue', etc that has to be burned off, and is thus cooler.
(I'm not sure if I understand the science behind that second one, but it's in another thread around somewhere..I'll hunt it down if you are interested)
A side effect may well be that there is a slight power loss, but if there is,
it is not noticeable to me (at least in my experience).
B) Maybe the cetane is higher so it lights off faster. As such the more heat energy is converted to kinetic energy.
However, if B is true then you should be able to dyno 2 similar engines, one on D2 and one on bio and get more power out of the bio. However, even the bio people tell you that you lose some power.
I did notice a mileage drop at B40. I used B100 and mixed it with D2 in the tank to get the proper formula I wanted. B20 didn't show anyting one way or the other that was significant. B40 and up cost me about 1 mpg and some change.
Last edited by aklim; Jan 15, 2008 at 02:39 AM.