Can someone explain how running liquor as a fuel would be cheaper, Everclear is $15 a bottle(with sin tax) for about 24oz of 90% alcohol. and please explain how you would modify your vehicle do it? I guess you mean homade liquor though, not sure how much that would cost us a gallon. The only reason it's not legal is because the government can't get taxes on it, same reason illegal drugs are still illegal.
I have heard you can make ethanol with switch grass, and it would be much cheaper than making it with corn, but the corn lobbiest want to make money off of it, there is no way to have cheap fuel unless you make your own somehow(biodiesel), because someone always wants to make an easy buck, and everyone drives so it's easy to take advantage of that.

 

Ethanol is pretty much alcohol.. you could technically run any vehicle off of a bottle of everclear, temporarily at least, but they have to get rid of all rubber in the engine and use special materials for the fuel lines. Plus if I recall correctly, some engines have issue because alcohol burns cleaner and doesn't lube them as well.

Replace valve stems and the fuel lines and our trucks could probably handle ethanol alright. Not been inside of an engine yet (just lots of reading) so there might be rubber in places I'm not thinking of. I think I also read people have to replace piston rings with ethanol vehicles, but I'm not sure on that.

You get less mileage with alcohol, and that's with E85.. with 100% I think you're going to drop about 25%+ in gas mileage/power.

 

Sorry I edited my post I didn't think anyone would post so fast, I just realized I had more to say, after I had posted.

 

Any thoughts on CNG?

 

This isn't an absolute. It all depends on the type of technology being used. A lot of concepts are reacting the hydrogen to power an electric motor, and this would produce pure water since the reaction is within the fuel cell.

In say, a retrofit application, if it were possible, sure you would have "some" nitrogen oxides, but the amount compared to burning gasoline would be negligible at best.

I believe the real cause of that huge fireball was the material that zeppelin was made of, not that it was lifted by hydrogen. The material was very flammable, and was easily ignited. The research I read said that the ship was moored at a high altitude and was being winched in. There were thunderstorms in the area, and it is very likely that lightning could have hit the ship, as it was grounded, and the fabric ignited.

Hydrogen fuel cells will be just as safe as your tank full of gas. If someone broadsides your truck, what happens to the gas? Nothing, so long as there is no ignition source. Same deal with hydrogen.

This is just like the fear of nuclear power. People don't want another 3 mile island incident, yet no one realizes that the reason it almost melted down was because the operators kept overriding the warnings, and even then the containment mechanism worked flawlessly, and the reactor is still working today. Nuclear energy would be another way make ourselves energy independent, but the same fear exists as with hydrogen.

Back to hydrogen power- We are lacking a number of things to make it a viable solution. We don't have the infrastructure to make it a commonly available fuel, we don't have the political influences to push for it, and I would bet money that big oil owns a good portion of the technology.

The oil companies own a lot of our alternative fuel/energy technology, they bought it long ago, and they don't spend money to develop it. Then when they do, we all praise them for "being green" when the truth is they had the technology all along, and were too greedy to develop it. My uncle used to be a solar engineer and was working for more efficient solar panels but an oil company bought them and closed it down.

That said, they will continue to get richer off of us as they develop and deploy these technologies... At least the planet will be cleaner I guess...

CarbedNotch- You have a lot of learning to do- There is no easy solution, nor is there a free one. You seem to have read a lot of Internet misinformation- don't be so trusting. I'll agree with you that we need alternative fuels, but I certainly don't think you have a good handle on the subject.

Sorry this is so long- Good discussion!

Andy

 

Its Ethyl (Grain) Alcohol- Stronger than EverClear though.

Lube is added to the fuel to prevent this- something you wouldn't get with a bottle of 'shine. The corrosive property of the alcohol is the most troublesome to deal with. You need special rubber parts, and stainless steel fuel lines to run it long term.

Never heard of any of that. Your valve stem seals are lubed with oil from the top- rings are lubed with oil from the bottom, so no issues that I have seen. The only issue you have is getting the fuel system to deliver enough fuel. Becuase it produces less BTU's than its gasoline counterpart ( I am talking strong concentrations of ethanol, E10-20 is not a problem) you will need the carb to flow more. With E85 the fuel system must be modified to run approx 30% more fuel than normal. This may not be as easy as just jetting up. I know quickfuel makes an E85 compliant carb, but I do not know the specifics of the modifications. Also, for EFI, both Megasquirt and FAST make systems that can run E85. Drag racers have been running alcohol for years with great results, so it isn't new technology.

I'd guess that number is closer to 35 or 40 percent.

Sorry to be longwinded again, but this is good stuff!

Andy

 

Ok I to think this is a good discussion. Here is a list of the dangers of Hydrogen.
Hydrogen (H2) Carrier Gas Safety Guide

The use of hydrogen as a GC carrier gas is potentially dangerous.

Hydrogen (H2) is a commonly used GC carrier gas. Hydrogen, however, is potentially explosive and has other characteristics that make it dangerous.

* Hydrogen is combustible over a wide range of concentrations. At atmospheric pressure, hydrogen is combustible at concentrations from 4% to 74.2% by volume.
* Hydrogen has the highest burning velocity of any gas.
* Hydrogen has a very low ignition energy.
* Hydrogen temperature increases as the gas expands.
* Hydrogen that is allowed to expand rapidly from high pressure can self ignite.
* Hydrogen burns with a nonluminous flame which can be invisible under bright light.

WARNING Hydrogen is potentially explosive. Take extreme care when using hydrogen as the GC carrier gas in a GC/MS system.

Some dangers are general, others are unique to GC/MS operation.

Hydrogen presents a number of dangers. Some are general, others are unique to GC or GC/MS operation. Dangers include, but are not limited to:

* Combustion of leaking hydrogen.
* Combustion due to rapid expansion of hydrogen from a high-pressure cylinder.
* Accumulation of hydrogen in the GC oven and subsequent combustion (see your GC documentation and the label on the top edge of the GC oven door).
* Accumulation of hydrogen in the mass spectrometer and subsequent combustion.

I am specifically thinking of non drivers flying down the road on the cell phone with a fuel cell of Hydrogen. The Hindenburg may have caught fire with the material, but there is no doubt that the fuel (hydrogen) burned and caused all the damage.
Enough about the Hydrogen in the car and bad drivers. You are right about the infrastructure, its not there. Can't forget about the cost of these new vehicles, Everyone discounts steam, it has been around for a long time. All the cars today can be retro fitted, new super steam is quick and explosive proof with new boilers. Anyway I have been looking at steam motorcycles, and steam turbine cars. Either way we will figure out a new fuel and it will be interesting.

JIM

 

fyi everclear is ethanol. ethanol is a fancy word for very pure alcohol. ethanol can be made using just about anything even sawdust. there are lots of good things to ethanol. most people ive talked to say they havent noticed a significant drop in economy or power. the nice thing bout ethanol is that very little mods would have to be made to run it. hydrogen would be a bitch

 

There is a great article in Hot Rod last month. It covers changing your car to e85. They discussed the parts you needed to change, where to get them, how to tune your engine, etc... Very information. I come from the country and now moonshine is legal. LOL
They sell e85 in the midwest and thats about it. Someone said ( I think it was Chavez) that if the US takes 1/2 of their corn and turned it into e85, then 3/4 of the impoverished of the world would starve. Interesting to think of using food for fuel. I still like steam.

JIM

 

I just can't wrap my head around a steam car, or anything that doesn't sound like what I know as a car sound. Which is why I like the idea of hybrids, but with a very powerful electric motor and a very small but high HP motor(think 2.0 liter V8 with 180HP, and 300TQ), and the gas motor just acts like a genorator most of the time shutting down and coming back on as it needs to and always running in it's most fuel efficient RPM range. It would still be just as easy as it was before, just put gas in it and go, no plugging it in at night or changing the battery whatever they do to electric cars(I must admit the Tesla Roadster is pretty cool).

I just can't fathom a steam car I imagine giant cars with two or three passengers sweating throwing coal into the furnace or something, like something you would see in a movie(Titanic, U-571). I know thats probably way off but thats how I imagine it. A buddy of mine has been talking about inventing a steam powered for years, I just laugh at him.

 

The problem with steam is that you still have to consume some type of fuel to produce the steam.

The problem with alcohol, biodiesel, & hydrogen is that it takes more energy to produce them than you get out of the final product. It takes a lot of fuel to plant that corn, fertilize it, weed it, harvest it, ship it, & process it. Depending on who does the study, it may break even, or take up to 125% more alcohol to produce a gallon of alcohol. I'm sure the corn growers say it takes 1/2 gallon of alcohol to produce the corn & whatnot to manufacture a gallon of alcohol. Oil companies probably say it takes 1 1/2 gallons.

You can make your own hydrogen. Fill a bucket with water. Stick two pieces of metal in the water, with one end above the water. Hook your battery charger to the metal pieces, + on one, - on the other. Plug the charger in & wait a few minutes. You'll see bubbles coming off the metal, that's hydrogen. It helps if you add a common chemical to the water, I forget what it is.... This works great for removing rust from metal by the way!!

Converting used cooking oil to a diesel substitute can work to a certain extent since you're converting a waste product to a fuel.

The enviromentalists think electric cars are the way to go. They forget that you would have to build massive new powerplants to recharge these things.

There is no easy answer, & nothing close to it. Scott

 

Dwrestle check out these two web sites. http://www.steamcar.co.uk/
and
http://www.steamcar.co.uk/

Scott,
If you combined fuel and steam you could raise the mpg we are currently getting to maybe around 150 or so. As for the sound. Lets put big subwoofers and record the sound of our favorite muscle car.
Look at National Geographic a few issues ago. They had an article on alternative fuel sources and there were some charts to tell you the amount of power produced based on gasoline. It was pretty good reading. Not sure how accurate it was though. I think I posted my first reply to the wrong post.??? LOL
Keep watching the news you will see me on it soon with a steam something..

JIM

 

You won't notice a drop in power, because there won't be one, but it will consume more fuel. Ethanol boosts octane which will result in a greater ability for the fuel to resist detonation, but it produces less energy than regular gas, so you will consume more fuel.

For instance, My daily driver, a 91 lumina, gets 350 miles to a tank of 87 non ethanol blend (16 gallon tank/350 miles= 21.875 mpg) and when I run the 89 E-10 that drops to 280 miles to a tank, or 17.5 mpg. However, in Iowa, the state subsidized the cost of ethanol, so the total amount I spend on fuel remains pretty much the same.

If you are planning on running a low blend, like E10, or E20, you should be fine with a good tune-up to accompany the fuel switch. The only issue you may have is if you have a vehicle that has sat a lot, the corrosive properties of ethanol may cut loose some crud that will plug fuel filters or take out a fuel pump.

I agree there!

Andy

 

There is no doubt that the fuel burned, but what if that ship were filled with gasoline vapor? You would have seen the same result. The only reason the hydrogen ignited was because it had an ignition source, a property that it shares with gasoline.

I think you could just about apply all those cautionary notes about hydrogen handling to gasoline handling. Not trying to say it shouldn't be a concern, but we should be just as concerned about the same people driving with a tank full of gas.

Regarding steam- it has been in use for years, so its proven technology- Packard used to have a water injection system to increase fuel mileage and to help control detonation, and Oldsmobile used the same technology with water and alcohol when they came out with the turbo jetfire in 62-3. The thing I like about steam is that it truly is renewable, but I don't know if we will see a company really embrace it, which is too bad. Looking forward to seeing your steam projects though!

Good stuff guys!

Andy

 

Depending on how you re-use the "waste energy" the inefficiences aren't that great. There are waste energies with the refining of gasoline too. If the ends weren't worth the means then you wouldn't have countires other than us messing with the stuff- But I do agree that corn is not the best place to get the stuff.

As for steam, the power can come from anywhere, including the sun. You could use batteries to heat the steam, then use the sun and the steam power to recharge the batteries.

The way I see it, corn ethanol is nothing more than an economic solution to help farmers wrapped up in a nice sounding package. Corn prices have been in the dirt for years, and are now breaking records. Personally, I think the farmers have it coming to them, and if they can market and sell the stuff to their benefit, so be it, and more power to them. Doesn't mean I have to buy it!

It really breaks up the rust too! I have also added washing soda to it and that works great. However, you are creating gaseous hydrogen, which is of no use to an automobile engine-

By using braking as a regenerative force, you wouldn't need to charge nearly as often as the anti-electric crowd says you would. However, it would still be a signifigant strain on our current power grid. All the more reason to go nuclear if you ask me!

Personally, I enjoy my gas-guzzlers, and don't really like the idea of a major infrastructure change, but so long as I can still get gas, I'll deal with it.