Broken Plugs, Who Pays?
#46
12-31-2007, 02:10 PM
Laughing Gas
Originally Posted by fx4x
Bummer!!!!!!
Keep in mind the fact you are blaming Ford for a dealer decision not Fords decision. A good dealer would fix what they break and not charge the customer. I manage a fleet and have learned to only deal with dealers that stand behind there work.
#47
12-31-2007, 02:31 PM
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Questions
1. Changing the plugs early.. not sure on that. Maybe just pull them out follow the TSB on the antiseize lube depending on the carbon build up. If you can do it yourself. JUST BE WEARY AND CAREFUL not to break any of them.
2. Ford will ONLY install OEM parts so if you want different plugs do it yourself. They are supposed to follow the TSB which should(?) eliminate this issue. The lube is supposed to eliminate the carbon build up.
3. It's all hourly work, unless your VIN falls in the TSB listing. For some reason my doesn't. The added labor is billed to Ford Corp but the original book labor is your responsibility. The listed time in the service guide is 2.9 hours for plug changing, depending on your shops rate that can be really expensive. My base price if everything went smooth was $210 for labor, 3 hours at $70/hr. According to Ford Corp they can't do anything because under my VIN there are no recalls or TSB's.
4. The $700 is the final cost after 8 hours labor to remove 8 plugs. NOTE: I haven't picked up the truck from the dealership yet. Was waiting on Ford Corp but I got the shaft from them. NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT PRICING!!! HA-HA!!
5. I want to say they fixed this issue either late 2006 or early 2007, but not totally sure. So far it's only 2004-2005 5.4L 3 valve Triton engines.
2. Ford will ONLY install OEM parts so if you want different plugs do it yourself. They are supposed to follow the TSB which should(?) eliminate this issue. The lube is supposed to eliminate the carbon build up.
3. It's all hourly work, unless your VIN falls in the TSB listing. For some reason my doesn't. The added labor is billed to Ford Corp but the original book labor is your responsibility. The listed time in the service guide is 2.9 hours for plug changing, depending on your shops rate that can be really expensive. My base price if everything went smooth was $210 for labor, 3 hours at $70/hr. According to Ford Corp they can't do anything because under my VIN there are no recalls or TSB's.
4. The $700 is the final cost after 8 hours labor to remove 8 plugs. NOTE: I haven't picked up the truck from the dealership yet. Was waiting on Ford Corp but I got the shaft from them. NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT PRICING!!! HA-HA!!
5. I want to say they fixed this issue either late 2006 or early 2007, but not totally sure. So far it's only 2004-2005 5.4L 3 valve Triton engines.
Originally Posted by silver lariat
I can understand it's not the tech's fault and I would not expect him to suffer the cost out of pocket so long as he followed procedure. It's bad engineering and Ford knows it. They won't voluntarily issue a recall because it would be massively expensive. So OK. if they won't fix ALL the trucks, and apparently some do have plugs changed without breakage, then at least they should set some standard reimbursement to the consumer IF the plug(s) break.
A few questions I still haven't seen an answer to in all of this discussion...
1) Is it better to change the plugs earlier? (As noted I just bought an '06 with 5.4 and was unaware of this problem. At 37K should I have the plugs changed now?)
2) When the plugs are changed do the same type go back in, i.e. is Ford gonna get us for this 1x, 2x, 3x whatever over the life of our truck?
3) Does it cost more if 1 plug breaks, 2, 3, and so on?
4) Was your $700 the price for a plug change REGARDLESS if one or more broke or not?
5) I think I read where Ford did finally fix this? At what point? Specifically which engines are suspect to this?
A few questions I still haven't seen an answer to in all of this discussion...
1) Is it better to change the plugs earlier? (As noted I just bought an '06 with 5.4 and was unaware of this problem. At 37K should I have the plugs changed now?)
2) When the plugs are changed do the same type go back in, i.e. is Ford gonna get us for this 1x, 2x, 3x whatever over the life of our truck?
3) Does it cost more if 1 plug breaks, 2, 3, and so on?
4) Was your $700 the price for a plug change REGARDLESS if one or more broke or not?
5) I think I read where Ford did finally fix this? At what point? Specifically which engines are suspect to this?
#48
12-31-2007, 02:36 PM
#49
12-31-2007, 02:42 PM
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Not to be mean but as far as I know these are the original OEM, factory installed plugs. I bought the truck used with only 34K miles on it. It was a lease return. I don't think the previous owner had an issues and had the plugs changed. I may be wrong but I can almost swear that they are the originals from the plant. Everything I've read states NOT to put compound on the threads. This causes issues with them seating in the head and makes them prone to blowning out the head. Even bigger and more expensive headache.
The issue of the stuck plugs is carbon build up on the electrode and beginning threads which wedges them into the heads. Hench the TSB states warm engine (Aluminum expands) and AeroKroil to soak and break down the carbon. It will get down in the expanded head and make it's way down to the big problem... the carbon build up.
Just A POOR DESIGN!!!!
The issue of the stuck plugs is carbon build up on the electrode and beginning threads which wedges them into the heads. Hench the TSB states warm engine (Aluminum expands) and AeroKroil to soak and break down the carbon. It will get down in the expanded head and make it's way down to the big problem... the carbon build up.
Just A POOR DESIGN!!!!
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445
Ford recomends an anti seize compond on the threads before they are installed and from the description you give it seems like they forgot to use it if this was the first plug change. Chances are the plugs had been removed before and not dressed before insertion so siezed.
#50
12-31-2007, 02:45 PM
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Tsb...
They don't give a VIN range listing in the TSB. You have to contact Ford at 1-800-392-3673 and ask them about your VIN and TSB 06-15-2. According to the guy who answered the phone he said that part of the labor would be covered if your vehicle is subject to this TSB. I have a feeling most aren't covered.
Originally Posted by dadirtydogg
where would i find this tsb? was going to check my vin to see if it's eligible. if it is, what do they do? cover part of the cost? i've got 90k and not sure if they are oem plugs or not but assume that they are
#51
12-31-2007, 03:08 PM
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I am a retired Ford tech(35 years) and i never worked in a shop that would charge a customer for a job i messed up. I know they are ones out there like that but i always took pride in my work and always worked where i was allowed to turn out quality work.Here is to all the quality Ford shops that turn out that kind of work,they are out there,find them mostly by word of mouth and stay with them.
#52
12-31-2007, 03:13 PM
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Quality
Would you consider this issue of stuck plugs your fault, something you messed up? Is this an issue of bad design that makes techs work harder and charge more for labor?
Originally Posted by Gary B
I am a retired Ford tech(35 years) and i never worked in a shop that would charge a customer for a job i messed up. I know they are ones out there like that but i always took pride in my work and always worked where i was allowed to turn out quality work.Here is to all the quality Ford shops that turn out that kind of work,they are out there,find them mostly by word of mouth and stay with them.
#53
12-31-2007, 03:51 PM
Laughing Gas
Originally Posted by MBBFord
Ford says nothing about putting anti seize on the threads.
They say to put it on the metal ground electrode sheild. That is what gets stuck in the head and breaks.
About your post on porcelian breaking then just putting the socket back on and taking the rest of the plug out....... that has noting do to with this model truck.... none of them are doing that... it is the nut and threads that is coming out and the porcelain staying in the head.
Ford F*ed up, and they just won't take care of it, they'd rather stick a biggggg repair bill in the rear of each one of their customers.
They say to put it on the metal ground electrode sheild. That is what gets stuck in the head and breaks.
About your post on porcelian breaking then just putting the socket back on and taking the rest of the plug out....... that has noting do to with this model truck.... none of them are doing that... it is the nut and threads that is coming out and the porcelain staying in the head.
Ford F*ed up, and they just won't take care of it, they'd rather stick a biggggg repair bill in the rear of each one of their customers.
A customer is not responsible for mistakes the dealer makes but some dealers will try and stick you for them. Ford didn't break the plug, the dealer did, so why do you expect Ford to pay for it. Ford is not responsible for the dealers mistakes only its own. You should take the dealer to small claims court for your money but before that threaten them with the better business bureau.
#54
12-31-2007, 04:22 PM
Laughing Gas
Originally Posted by ranger88a
Ok, I'm going to ruffle a few feathers, but in the techs defence, if the plug breaks It's my fault? Sorry, but then you do it! I know it's a ford flaw not arguing that one bit!
After all ford even sent out a special tool (that doesnt help much) to remove the broken plug. Look at it from the techs point, we get paid flat rate. That means in a perfect world every job should take approx. so much time. We spend thousands of dollars on special tools (yes, to beat the time). How else are we to feed our family? I totally do understand the customers problem and I can understand how you feel, I would feel the same way. But, understand where we the techs come from please. We don't break the plug on purpose it happens just as anthing else in daily life. Your plumbing can spring a leak in one spot also, if when the plumber tries to fix the pipe and the whole pipe needs replacing doe's he foot the bill? I really don't want everyone upset at me, I really do understand I just hope the customer sometimes can undersand also! It's not your fault I understand, but, is it mine? Thanks for understanding if you do, if you don't, I understand.
After all ford even sent out a special tool (that doesnt help much) to remove the broken plug. Look at it from the techs point, we get paid flat rate. That means in a perfect world every job should take approx. so much time. We spend thousands of dollars on special tools (yes, to beat the time). How else are we to feed our family? I totally do understand the customers problem and I can understand how you feel, I would feel the same way. But, understand where we the techs come from please. We don't break the plug on purpose it happens just as anthing else in daily life. Your plumbing can spring a leak in one spot also, if when the plumber tries to fix the pipe and the whole pipe needs replacing doe's he foot the bill? I really don't want everyone upset at me, I really do understand I just hope the customer sometimes can undersand also! It's not your fault I understand, but, is it mine? Thanks for understanding if you do, if you don't, I understand.
Would be a nice way to fill in the time on a slow day huh, just break a few things in the customers car then charge him for the repairs! Wow, why didn't i think of that! If thats what you do in your shop please post the name and address of your shop so we will be sure and get it posted to the, do not patronize list.
#55
12-31-2007, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by bfloyd4445
Your comparisonwith a worn out pipe dosent fit. There is nothing worn out here just replaceing a spark plug. A new plug can break just as easy as an old one. I've made a living with my hands making things work, fixing things that broke, and not once did I ever charge a customer for something I broke.
Would be a nice way to fill in the time on a slow day huh, just break a few things in the customers car then charge him for the repairs! Wow, why didn't i think of that! If thats what you do in your shop please post the name and address of your shop so we will be sure and get it posted to the, do not patronize list.
Would be a nice way to fill in the time on a slow day huh, just break a few things in the customers car then charge him for the repairs! Wow, why didn't i think of that! If thats what you do in your shop please post the name and address of your shop so we will be sure and get it posted to the, do not patronize list.
#56
12-31-2007, 07:49 PM
#57
12-31-2007, 08:24 PM
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Whoever this member is should take a stand and give us the honest truth. Enough of us taking one because of Ford's and the dealers screwups. I forgot... if he works for Ford then he must not have any compassion for the customer along with any other employee that I've talked and dealt with. SHOW ME THE MONEY SO I CAN RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally Posted by moonlighter
There is a member here that works for Ford and he checks this forum on behalf of Ford. I have never read where he weighs in on the sparkplug issue for the 5.4 ..
#58
12-31-2007, 09:22 PM
"There is a member here that works for Ford and he checks this forum on behalf of Ford. I have never read where he weighs in on the sparkplug issue for the 5.4 .."
I am not he, but he may not have the official stature to make any sort of commitment.
Ford would dictate any responses, their responses would be dictated by lawyers, and if past experience is any indication only fools and morons believe in Fords commitment to their customers.
If we have a Ford spy reading:
I enjoy my older and carefully chosen Ford products but I would never buy a new Ford because I cannot trust the company. I'll wait to see what your bosses concealed so I can avoid problems. The expressions of anguish from their loyal customers who got burned ought to have gotten their attention...
I also actively discourage the folks I know from buying new (=unproven) Fords. Unethical companies don't deserve to sell product.
I am not he, but he may not have the official stature to make any sort of commitment.
Ford would dictate any responses, their responses would be dictated by lawyers, and if past experience is any indication only fools and morons believe in Fords commitment to their customers.
If we have a Ford spy reading:
I enjoy my older and carefully chosen Ford products but I would never buy a new Ford because I cannot trust the company. I'll wait to see what your bosses concealed so I can avoid problems. The expressions of anguish from their loyal customers who got burned ought to have gotten their attention...
I also actively discourage the folks I know from buying new (=unproven) Fords. Unethical companies don't deserve to sell product.
#60
01-01-2008, 06:25 AM
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Telling The Truth
That's the way to play the cards.
I own a 2004 F-150 FX4 which are supposed to be tested and an older series we are still getting it. Maybe the older stuff isn't as good as the new stuff that is horrible!
I own a 2004 F-150 FX4 which are supposed to be tested and an older series we are still getting it. Maybe the older stuff isn't as good as the new stuff that is horrible!
Originally Posted by monckywrench
"There is a member here that works for Ford and he checks this forum on behalf of Ford. I have never read where he weighs in on the sparkplug issue for the 5.4 .."
I am not he, but he may not have the official stature to make any sort of commitment.
Ford would dictate any responses, their responses would be dictated by lawyers, and if past experience is any indication only fools and morons believe in Fords commitment to their customers.
If we have a Ford spy reading:
I enjoy my older and carefully chosen Ford products but I would never buy a new Ford because I cannot trust the company. I'll wait to see what your bosses concealed so I can avoid problems. The expressions of anguish from their loyal customers who got burned ought to have gotten their attention...
I also actively discourage the folks I know from buying new (=unproven) Fords. Unethical companies don't deserve to sell product.
I am not he, but he may not have the official stature to make any sort of commitment.
Ford would dictate any responses, their responses would be dictated by lawyers, and if past experience is any indication only fools and morons believe in Fords commitment to their customers.
If we have a Ford spy reading:
I enjoy my older and carefully chosen Ford products but I would never buy a new Ford because I cannot trust the company. I'll wait to see what your bosses concealed so I can avoid problems. The expressions of anguish from their loyal customers who got burned ought to have gotten their attention...
I also actively discourage the folks I know from buying new (=unproven) Fords. Unethical companies don't deserve to sell product.